Were the majority of atheists once religious?

[Zetesis Apistia]

I raised this question in another thread. It is my contention that a bad religious experience and not a lack of evidence is the basic cause for atheism. I also believe that the majority of atheists came from either a catholic or a protestant background. What I would like to do is add a poll to the thread so we can get an accurate count. If you desire to add anything with your vote feel free to have at it.

[micatala]

Mirror be thine friend me thinks.
Please don't runaway because of what your fellow christians preach. Please runaway because you are defeated by the evidence of the fallaciousness of your beliefs as demonstrated by the stupidity of your alleged fellow travelers and have no defense for such.

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[Zetesis Apistia]

By their fruits shall they be known?

Im sure missionaries love othersbut they love their god and religion more.

Have you seen the damage done in Indian communities by these loving missionaries?

I have.

If they had true love and compassion for their converts they would not bring the division. Their reasoning...losing some temporal peace for the possibility (should the converts truly believe) of eternal salvation. In the process they destroy whole communities.

The embodiment of Luke 12:53

And therein lies the problem. That is where Christianity and religion are divided. Religion teaches a vertical service to God where Christianity teaches a horizontal one. Religious people serve God to please God. Christians serve people to please God. When we damage people in an attempt to please God, God is not pleased. Love does no harm to others therefore love is the fulfillment of God's laws. I made that mistake early on in my service to God. I jumped through alot of hoops hoping to please God. However, in trying to please God I did not care how it affected people. That was a definite oversight on my part and I had an epiphany one evening that changed all of that for me. If you notice one thing about Jesus. every non religious person loved him. It was the religious people that had the problem with him. In fact Paul tells Timothy that it is important to have a good reputation with unbelievers...

1st Timothy 3:7 He should also be well spoken of by outsiders, that he may not incur censure and so fall into the snares of the Devil.

Boy don't that fly in the face of Westboro baptist church.

Interesting that you use the terminology of tastethe Tibetans call it One Taste (ekrasa)

Intimate knowledge is really the only true knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is really quite insufficient. Would you rather serve along side of a soldier that relies on 20 years of university studies for survival in war, or would you rather serve along side a battle hardened soldier that was a high school drop out?

Yes and necessity is the mother of invention.

Indeed it isthus 1000s of gods have been invented.

I guess I walked right into that one huh? Necessity is also the mother of many discoveries.

Most people come to believe at a time in their lives when they are in need. So maybe you too will arrive at a time of desperation in the future that may provoke you to look for a divine crutch. You cannot say you won't because you have yet to be placed in such a situation. At least I assume.

Oh I have indeed been through the dark night of the soul.

Have you?

Lets just say that I came from a past that was a notable criminal enterprise that involved alot of violence. I was indicted by a federal grand jury on several felony counts. I could have potentially spent the rest of my life in prison. Two of my best friends were killed in my presence. I do know the darkness my friend. I lost my taste for it and that is the main reason I am a Christian.

on what do you support your belief?

History, archaeology, palaeontology, sociology, psychology, philosophy

And personal experience.

I base mine entirely on personal experience that has helped to confirm the veracity of scripture at least to me.

[Danmark]

That is where Christianity and religion are divided. Religion teaches a vertical service to God where Christianity teaches a horizontal one. Religious people serve God to please God. Christians serve people to please God. When we damage people in an attempt to please God, God is not pleased. . . .

I understand there is an effort to make Christianity different from all other religions. It is not.

Matthew 22:37-39
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Christianity is not special. Even Buddhism, which the most non theistic of religions has it's own concept of Christ's sacrifice in the person of the Bodhisattva who escapes this life, but returns at great sacrifice to lead others from the shackles of this world.

[Zetesis Apistia]

That is where Christianity and religion are divided. Religion teaches a vertical service to God where Christianity teaches a horizontal one. Religious people serve God to please God. Christians serve people to please God. When we damage people in an attempt to please God, God is not pleased. . . .

I understand there is an effort to make Christianity different from all other religions. It is not.

Matthew 22:37-39
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.'"


Christianity is not special. Even Buddhism, which the most non theistic of religions has it's own concept of Christ's sacrifice in the person of the Bodhisattva who escapes this life, but returns at great sacrifice to lead others from the shackles of this world.

Like i said, any service that is vertical is religion. It is impossible to not be vertical apart from the Spirit of God. It is the depositing of God's spirit in us that gives us the ability to be horizontal in our service. Anything vertical is non Christian.

[bernee51]

By their fruits shall they be known?

Im sure missionaries love othersbut they love their god and religion more.

Have you seen the damage done in Indian communities by these loving missionaries?

I have.

If they had true love and compassion for their converts they would not bring the division. Their reasoning...losing some temporal peace for the possibility (should the converts truly believe) of eternal salvation. In the process they destroy whole communities.

The embodiment of Luke 12:53

And therein lies the problem. That is where Christianity and religion are divided. Religion teaches a vertical service to God where Christianity teaches a horizontal one. Religious people serve God to please God. Christians serve people to please God. When we damage people in an attempt to please God, God is not pleased. Love does no harm to others therefore love is the fulfillment of God's laws. I made that mistake early on in my service to God. I jumped through alot of hoops hoping to please God. However, in trying to please God I did not care how it affected people. That was a definite oversight on my part and I had an epiphany one evening that changed all of that for me. If you notice one thing about Jesus. every non religious person loved him. It was the religious people that had the problem with him. In fact Paul tells Timothy that it is important to have a good reputation with unbelievers...

1st Timothy 3:7 He should also be well spoken of by outsiders, that he may not incur censure and so fall into the snares of the Devil.

Boy don't that fly in the face of Westboro baptist church.

I believe I understand what you are saying here, and it concurs with Gandhis I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

The vertical approach is that god is somewhere out therea goal to be achieved. The horizontal realizes that god is in here. Communion cannot be achieved, only realized.

This leads to an understanding of your god is not pleased comment. Many (if not all) non-theists would ask how a perfect transcendent being could be either pleased or not pleasedsuch human emotions.

In the end you realized that the vertical approach was not fulfilling. Fulfilment, god being pleased, can only come about with an understanding of the nature of beingit can only come from communion with the divine which is part of our very nature. It is then that the joy arises.

The question must be askedwhy do Christians proselytize at all?

Interesting that you use the terminology of tastethe Tibetans call it One Taste (ekrasa)

Intimate knowledge is really the only true knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is really quite insufficient. Would you rather serve along side of a soldier that relies on 20 years of university studies for survival in war, or would you rather serve along side a battle hardened soldier that was a high school drop out?

I take much of my guidance from this man.a battle hardened soldier.

There is a video which is very worthwhile

Yes and necessity is the mother of invention.

Indeed it isthus 1000s of gods have been invented.

I guess I walked right into that one huh? Necessity is also the mother of many discoveries.

I see truth as being a pathless land. It is not a destination to be reached but a journey to be travelled. Discovery happens along the way.

Most people come to believe at a time in their lives when they are in need. So maybe you too will arrive at a time of desperation in the future that may provoke you to look for a divine crutch. You cannot say you won't because you have yet to be placed in such a situation. At least I assume.

Oh I have indeed been through the dark night of the soul.

Have you?

Lets just say that I came from a past that was a notable criminal enterprise that involved alot of violence. I was indicted by a federal grand jury on several felony counts. I could have potentially spent the rest of my life in prison. Two of my best friends were killed in my presence. I do know the darkness my friend. I lost my taste for it and that is the main reason I am a Christian.

Sort of like a reverse of the questions you asked in the OP?

But the darkness you seem to be describing is not what I meant. One doesnt lose ones taste for it. It must be embraced and through that embracing a transformation takes place.


Beliefs can either be translative or transformative. With translation the believer (the self) is given a new way to think about the world, with transformation the self itself is inquired into, looked into, and ultimately throttled.

on what do you support your belief?

History, archaeology, palaeontology, sociology, psychology, philosophy

And personal experience.

I base mine entirely on personal experience that has helped to confirm the veracity of scripture at least to me.

As I have stated previouslyI see three sources of knowledge: scripture (the oral and written testimony of the spiritual experiences of others), logic and personal experience. Of these the last is the most important.

[Zetesis Apistia]

The vertical approach is that god is somewhere out therea goal to be achieved. The horizontal realizes that god is in here. Communion cannot be achieved, only realized.

This leads to an understanding of your god is not pleased comment. Many (if not all) non-theists would ask how a perfect transcendent being could be either pleased or not pleasedsuch human emotions.

In the end you realized that the vertical approach was not fulfilling. Fulfilment, god being pleased, can only come about with an understanding of the nature of beingit can only come from communion with the divine which is part of our very nature. It is then that the joy arises.

There are a number of things that factor in that keep people from experiencing God. The main problem is, the impulses of human nature are very deceptive. I am writing a book and the name will be metamorphosis. In my book, metamorphosis is a sequence of doors that one must pass through in order to arrive at ones desired utopia. The sequence of opening the doors cannot be altered and none can be left unopened or else metamorphosis cannot happen. The reason religious people never reach their utopia is because of the deception of human nature as it creates mental obstacles and then it sends wrong impulses on how to remedy them.

There are fundamental psychological voids that keep us from realizing a sense of completeness as human beings. Each of us instinctively attempt to fill those voids daily. I think we talked about this before. But voids such as happiness, love and or acceptance, purpose, validation, and so on. these are all things we are born without and they are things that all of us try to satisfy. What I found on my personal journey was how and why i had tried for years to fill these voids and why my attempts were all in vain. Why do people never find true happiness when they invest all of their energy on trying to be happy? Why do people remain self conscious even though they are well liked? Why are people self condemning when they try their best to be "good"? These are questions I found answers to through my own metamorphosis.

I said all of that to say this. Most people think their problem is vertical so they neglect the horizontal. Within that statement lies the problem of the whole human race.

The question must be askedwhy do Christians proselytize at all?

Some out of a sense of duty. Some out of concern. Some for self glorification. Some for monetary gain. And so on.

I take much of my guidance from this man.a battle hardened soldier.

There is a video which is very worthwhile

Exactly. But most atheists form their conclusion via intellectual knowledge which is inconclusive because Christianity must be confirmed through intimate knowledge.

I see truth as being a pathless land. It is not a destination to be reached but a journey to be travelled. Discovery happens along the way.

I suppose since we can never reach a point of omniscience there will always be room to learn more. Hence you are correct that it is not a destination because it is a destination that can never be attained. So we gather things along the way.

Sort of like a reverse of the questions you asked in the OP?

But the darkness you seem to be describing is not what I meant. One doesnt lose ones taste for it. It must be embraced and through that embracing a transformation takes place.

I lost my taste for the darkness which caused me to ponder the light. My journey had brought me to a crossroad. One I knew was a path to destruction and the other appeared to offer some hope. I chose the latter at a time of desperation in my life. It was by choosing the particular fork in the road that I stumbled across the answers I was looking for.

As I have stated previouslyI see three sources of knowledge: scripture (the oral and written testimony of the spiritual experiences of others), logic and personal experience. Of these the last is the most important.

In fact the former is confirmed through the latter. I say that the experience of a born again experience confirms the existence of God. You cannot reflect on the experience so you deny it by referencing your intellect. Tell me how you are qualified to deny my claim when you lack the experiential knowledge that is required to confirm it.

[Zetesis Apistia]

That is where Christianity and religion are divided. Religion teaches a vertical service to God where Christianity teaches a horizontal one. Religious people serve God to please God. Christians serve people to please God. When we damage people in an attempt to please God, God is not pleased. . . .

I understand there is an effort to make Christianity different from all other religions. It is not.

Matthew 22:37-39
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Christianity is not special. Even Buddhism, which the most non theistic of religions has it's own concept of Christ's sacrifice in the person of the Bodhisattva who escapes this life, but returns at great sacrifice to lead others from the shackles of this world.

Religion is a vertical service that seeks to please God. Christianity is a horizontal service. That is the difference in a nutshell.

[Nickman]

Religion is a vertical service that seeks to please God. Islam is a horizontal service. That is the difference in a nutshell.

Your words are interchangeable with any faith. See my above emboldened portion.

[Zetesis Apistia]

Religion is a vertical service that seeks to please God. Islam is a horizontal service. That is the difference in a nutshell.

Your words are interchangeable with any faith. See my above emboldened portion.

No islam is not a horizontal service. Muslims are bent on pleasing Allah. Allah is vertical. They place little value on human life.

[Nickman]

Religion is a vertical service that seeks to please God. Islam is a horizontal service. That is the difference in a nutshell.

Your words are interchangeable with any faith. See my above emboldened portion.

No islam is not a horizontal service. Muslims are bent on pleasing Allah. Allah is vertical. They place little value on human life.

Really? It is way more devoted to Allah on the horizontal plain. You don't wanna please God or Jesus? They place huge value on human life. If a woman messes around, they stone her like the bible says. This is in order to keep human life pure for Allah. If anything, Islam is the ultimate Christianity. You guys don't even know the meaning of true worship. Did you know that they keep women inside the regulations of Pauls regulations.