Lets cut to the chase: Why should I be a Christian?

[notachance]

If you're a theist and are active on a forum called "Debating Christianity & Religion", then you probably believe that the value of Christianity is something that can be spoken for.

So here is the situation: I don't want you to tell me why you believe. I understand that for many of you, it has to do with a feeling in your heart, or inexpressible faith, or something along those lines, which would be hard to verbalize and to formulate into a cogent case for Christianity. As respectable a that is, and as good a reason it may be for you to believe, it doesn't help me.

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

Given the fact that I don't share with you that emotional connection with Christianity, given that I don't feel the presence of Jesus in my heart like you do, given that I guide my decision making and my opinion forming by rationality and common sense, what can you tell me along those lines to persuade me that Christianity is the way to go?

Why should I be a Christian? What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

[Composer]

Well, Jesus's powers are nothing compared to his father, Satan.

According to their very own Story book bible that is absolutely true notachance!

Story book bible Proof -

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah". (2 Samuel 24: 1) KJV story book

Comparing this parallel account of the same incident we read: -

And , , , , (1 Chron. 21: 1) KJV story book

Later in story book 1 Chron. 21 we read: -

And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. {And...: Heb. And it was evil in the eyes of the LORD concerning this thing} 8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (1 Chron. 21: 7 - 8) KJV story book

So the ADVERSARY = Satan (i.e. Satan is a Hebrew Word - Metaphor) that was against Israel / smote Israel - was definitely not a naughty spirit angel supernatural being (which don't literally exist in or out of the story book pages) but was story book god itself!

QED

[Composer]

It seems to me that your point is You are not perfect, why should anyone else be. I admit that Im not perfect and probably not good example of how all should live. But then, Im not trying to get people to follow me.

Ok! so now you admit you are a poor example! Hence any hope of credibility for you is already dashed. No one I know wishes to ' follow you ' and YOU are supposed to want to ' follow your jesus ' but admit you are so far a failure.

Personally I believe and can prove you are not a genuine jesus believer at all, but in fact a jesus reject -

How do I also know this for certain? - because for starters you just admitted that you are ' less than perfect and a poor example of your faith/beliefs ' hence Story book based carnal sin and disobedience obviously still controls you!

You should follow Jesus, not me, because Jesus is good example.

Actually story book jesus is also a terrible example of decency, for it only made lip service to its other trinitarian god(s) (apparently?) in order to satisfy its selfish personal carnal lusts for divine rewards for its ultimately unwarranted efforts. (e.g. Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)

Atheists and non-believers who have already sacrificed themselves on the various battle-fields for both believers and non-believers and others like them that shall likely do so again, have the only legitimate morals and integrity and put your jesus and its like-minded selfish wanna-be believers to shame, for they did so with absolutely NO lusts nor desires nor motivation for divine rewards.

I doubt that Composer is not poor.

As a non jesus believer, I am not bound by the constraints of those who claim to be. I am rich in many ways, including possessing the Truth that successfully exposes and decimates ALL Religions & Cults and especially those based upon their preferred ' Story book '. e.g. bible, Qu'ran, BoM etc. etc.

So therefore whoever of you who doesn't renounce all that he has, he can't be my disciple.
Luke 14:33
(Not only property but also everything else)

I think all should read that whole chapter (Luke 14). That chapter teaches that if one wants to be disciple of Jesus, then Jesus should be more important than family or property. And you should leave all other things if you want to follow Jesus. If you are focused on other things than Jesus, you cant really do well in being disciple of Jesus, because your mind is focused on other things. This means also, if you are poor and think all the time all the riches that you want, you are not much different than rich who see his riches more important than Jesus.

Can it be fit to this day? I think it cant directly, because Jesus is not on earth.

Proven BS excuses!

Again I refer you to your bible Story book -

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:12-14) KJV Story book. Thus proving that ANY believer shall do ' greater miracles than Story book jesus ' and proves also this promise IS NOT made only or restricted to the Story book Apostles!

You are obviously repeatedly proven NOT a genuine believer for you admit your works/efforts are inferior at best!

I may be wrong in this.

Indeed you are and your own Story book, your admissions & my skills have already repeatedly proven it!

[1213]

Why should one 'follow Jesus'?

I meant, if you want to be disciple of Jesus, then you should follow him, not me. Of course I recommend it to others also, if one wants that those promises that Jesus told came true. And also in generally, Jesus is better choice than me to follow. But Im not going to judge you if you dont follow him.

he curses fig trees when the won't bear fruit out of season

Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came to see if perhaps he might find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mark 12:13

That can mean, there were not even mark that could show that tree is going to give fruit some day. And I think that was the reason why he cursed the tree, not because there werent fruit yet. Figs can give crop many times in a year, and there could have been marks from that.

And that is also parable, similar destiny is also for those who abandon God.

murders pigs

I only wonder why you say so. Bible doesnt say that Jesus killed pigs. Bible says:

They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss. Now there was there a herd of many pigs feeding on the mountain, and they begged him that he would allow them to enter into those. He allowed them. The demons came out from the man, and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned.
Luke 8:31

Jesus did not kill those pigs. They probably made suicide. Demons had asked that Jesus wouldnt send them to abyss, so probably the suicide to lake was pigs idea, not demons. It was not good day for those demons. Just when they thought they avoided abyss, they were drowned.

But I have heard that peoples kill animals, therefore I wouldnt be amazed if Jesus has done same thing. But it is not something that Jesus teaches that all should do.

tell people that they have to hate their family

And he also says: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) and love your enemies, do good to those who hate you (Luke 6:27).

So what does that hating really mean? It means, family, property and all other things on earth lead easily peoples away from Jesus and God. They are usually obstacles, if you are trying to be disciple of Jesus. Therefore they are thing that can be hated.

Those shouldnt be more important than Jesus and God, because all other things are relying on them, if you believe what Bible teaches. God can give everything to people, but family, money or similar things cant. All that is in this world is disappearing and dont last, therefore its not wise to rely on them and put your life upon them. This is that what Jesus teaches also when he says: "Beware! Keep yourselves from covetousness, for a man's life doesn't consist of the abundance of the things which he possesses."

He spoke a parable to them, saying, "The ground of a certain rich man brought forth abundantly. He reasoned within himself, saying, 'What will I do, because I don't have room to store my crops?' He said, 'This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. I will tell my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry."' "But God said to him, 'You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared-whose will they be?' So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
Luke 12:15-26

There is nothing on earth that could save your life, so dont give them too much value.

It is not bad to farm and storage food. It is not bad to have family. They should be received thankfully and remember that they are not God. They are only things that God has given to us.

what is to follow with that kind of advice?

It depends greatly on, is reader willing to understand. If I dont want to understand, it doesnt matter what is said. I can turn everything to what I want to hear, if Im in that mood.

[1213]

How do I also know this for certain? - because for starters you just admitted that you are ' less than perfect and a poor example of your faith/beliefs ' hence Story book based carnal sin and disobedience obviously still controls you!

If Im less than perfect, how does it show that Bible is wrong? Try to understand that this is not about me, it is about what Bible teaches and what is good.

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience.

And what do you think sin means?

Sin is to be apart from God, and because of that episode in Eden, we are all apart from God and therefore in sinful state, if we dont turn back to God.

[Goat]

Why should one 'follow Jesus'?

I meant, if you want to be disciple of Jesus, then you should follow him, not me. Of course I recommend it to others also, if one wants that those promises that Jesus told came true. And also in generally, Jesus is better choice than me to follow. But Im not going to judge you if you dont follow him.

Why would one want to be a disciple of Jesus is my question.. which is 'why follow Jesus'. What promises can you show 'came true', and can you show that 'following Jesus' will make any other promises come true? This seems to be more avoidance of my question than answering it.

he curses fig trees when the won't bear fruit out of season

Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came to see if perhaps he might find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mark 12:13

That can mean, there were not even mark that could show that tree is going to give fruit some day. And I think that was the reason why he cursed the tree, not because there werent fruit yet. Figs can give crop many times in a year, and there could have been marks from that.

And that is also parable, similar destiny is also for those who abandon God.

In other words, it's a threat./.. for something that you can't even show has actual meaning.

The gospel reader is saying 'Believe in my god, or you'll be SORRY after your dead'. .. and it can't be shown that this God actually exists, or that there will be any penalty for anything , or even existence after death.

murders pigs

I only wonder why you say so. Bible doesnt say that Jesus killed pigs. Bible says:

They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss. Now there was there a herd of many pigs feeding on the mountain, and they begged him that he would allow them to enter into those. He allowed them. The demons came out from the man, and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned.
Luke 8:31

Yes, Jesus, allegedly all knowing, causes the death of the herd of pigs, by putting demons in them (never mind, there are no evidence of demons. He is directly responsible for killing pigs.

Jesus did not kill those pigs. They probably made suicide. Demons had asked that Jesus wouldnt send them to abyss, so probably the suicide to lake was pigs idea, not demons. It was not good day for those demons. Just when they thought they avoided abyss, they were drowned.

Nope, sorry, but his actions directly caused the death of the pigs (in the fictional story of course). It's a horrible story , and does not show Christianity in a good light at all.

But I have heard that peoples kill animals, therefore I wouldnt be amazed if Jesus has done same thing. But it is not something that Jesus teaches that all should do.

And, because, in the story, Jesus wiped out this herd of pigs, the poor farmers lost a great deal of their resources and income.

tell people that they have to hate their family

And he also says: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) and love your enemies, do good to those who hate you (Luke 6:27).

So what does that hating really mean? It means, family, property and all other things on earth lead easily peoples away from Jesus and God. They are usually obstacles, if you are trying to be disciple of Jesus. Therefore they are thing that can be hated.

That is a big rationalization,... and honestly, I find that 'you must abandon your family to follow God and Jesus' is highly immoral. The method of isolating people from friends and family IS a method that cults do use to control people though.. not for spirituality's sake, but for power over the person.

Those shouldnt be more important than Jesus and God, because all other things are relying on them, if you believe what Bible teaches. God can give everything to people, but family, money or similar things cant. All that is in this world is disappearing and dont last, therefore its not wise to rely on them and put your life upon them. This is that what Jesus teaches also when he says: "Beware! Keep yourselves from covetousness, for a man's life doesn't consist of the abundance of the things which he possesses."

And, why should I believe what the bible teaches,?? The claim that 'God can give everything to people , but family money or similar things can't doesn't seem to be supported, except by the claims of the bible. Let's see you provide an example of 'God giving everything to people' that isn't making one big confirmation bias 'oh, it must be from god'.

He spoke a parable to them, saying, "The ground of a certain rich man brought forth abundantly. He reasoned within himself, saying, 'What will I do, because I don't have room to store my crops?' He said, 'This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. I will tell my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry."' "But God said to him, 'You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared-whose will they be?' So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
Luke 12:15-26

That is what Luke claims .. but.. can you show that this is the truth, and not merely a sale technique? To me, it seems like one big con job. Unsupported claims really do it for me. .. particularly when there are also parts of it that match cult like symptoms that are well known for controlling people.

There is nothing on earth that could save your life, so dont give them too much value.

It is not bad to farm and storage food. It is not bad to have family. They should be received thankfully and remember that they are not God. They are only things that God has given to us.

That's the claim.. but is it true? And, if God did give it to us, why should I follow JESUS.. since there is the hindu gods, the Jewish version of the Abraham god, taoism, buddhism, and the Native american Indian verions of God.

[Composer]

I meant, if you want to be disciple of Jesus, then you should follow him, not me.

Do you actually legitimately ' follow this jesus ' or are you just another fraud pretending you are?

Let's see legitimate legal documentation / public sworn statement that you have forsaken ALL your earthly possessions as this Story book jesus commanded you must do -

In the same way therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions. .105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Or else remain like ALL your predecessors, jesus' frauds!

Of course I recommend it to others also, if one wants that those promises that Jesus told came true.

What alleged ' promises would they be and your legitimate supportive evidence?
'.

You are obviously typically only motivated like the Story book jesus by selfish carnal greed for receipt of Story book divine promises. Hence your motivation is likewise a selfish one.

Conversely, Atheists and non-believers who have died and will again on the battle-fields for believers & non-believers manifest a truly Unselfish morality with NO desires or expectations for any divine rewards and thus put you selfish and lustful so called and self-acclaimed believers to absolute shame!

I only wonder why you say so. Bible doesnt say that Jesus killed pigs. Bible says:

They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss. Now there was there a herd of many pigs feeding on the mountain, and they begged him that he would allow them to enter into those. He allowed them. The demons came out from the man, and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned.
Luke 8:31

Jesus did not kill those pigs. They probably made suicide.

Ah! clever little jesus, making the pigs believe they were lemmings. LOL!

Demons had asked that Jesus wouldnt send them to abyss, so probably the suicide to lake was pigs idea, not demons. It was not good day for those demons. Just when they thought they avoided abyss, they were drowned.

Ahh! ' drowned spirits ', they must have been the ' fireproof ones ' (cf. Matt. 25:41) KJV Story book

Using your hypothesis, IF these spirit demons were successfully drowned, then why didn't they drown earlier when the Nohaic flood allegedly took place? (Gen. 6:17) KJV Story book

[Composer]

If Im less than perfect, how does it show that Bible is wrong?

#Step 1: IF you really believe your bible ' is right ' then let's start your test of legitimacy and obedience to it's fundamental principles? -

In the same way therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions.105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Sworn statement that you have please?

Try to understand that this is not about me, it is about what Bible teaches and what is good.

IF it is so good then you will have no problem fulfilling #Step 1 immediately for us!

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience.

And what do you think sin means?

According to the dictionary -

Sin = 2. ' offence against good taste or propriety etc. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

Sin is to be apart from God, and because of that episode in Eden, we are all apart from God and therefore in sinful state, if we dont turn back to God.

Your legitimate evidence a single word in ANY acclaimed ' holy-text ' is the words of ANY god(s) given to man remains a constant zero!

Hence your Story book claim is proven merely a fictional concept devised by some men making illegitimate & fraudulent based claims!

[1213]

Why would one want to be a disciple of Jesus is my question.. which is 'why follow Jesus'. What promises can you show 'came true', and can you show that 'following Jesus' will make any other promises come true? This seems to be more avoidance of my question than answering it.

Ok. Of course there may be many reasons to want to be disciple of Jesus. I think the best reason is that one thinks Jesus is good and his teaching is good and therefore person wants to follow Jesus.

And when I said about promises, I meant that one reason to follow is, if you want this to be true: I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

And as you may already know, I cant at the moment show you the eternal life. And I said it because thats one reason why someone may want to follow Jesus. But that is not in my opinion the best reason.

The gospel reader is saying 'Believe in my god, or you'll be SORRY after your dead'. .. and it can't be shown that this God actually exists, or that there will be any penalty for anything , or even existence after death.

I think it cant be said so. I think nobody is going to be sorry because they didnt believe, I believe many will be sorry, because they loved darkness more than light, because
this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. For everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions have been done in God.
John 3:19-21

And if I could show you that there is penalty or eternal life, it wouldnt help, because that knowledge wouldnt change that what you really think is good.

I find that 'you must abandon your family to follow God and Jesus' is highly immoral. The method of isolating people from friends and family IS a method that cults do use to control people though.. not for spirituality's sake, but for power over the person.

I think it could be as you say, especially if there wasnt said: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) and love your enemies, do good to those who hate you (Luke 6:27). But now that there are those parts also, it is not really isolating. It only puts things in right order, God first, and after that other things that rely on God.

And, why should I believe what the bible teaches,??

Because its good what it teaches.

The claim that 'God can give everything to people , but family money or similar things can't doesn't seem to be supported, except by the claims of the bible. Let's see you provide an example of 'God giving everything to people' that isn't making one big confirmation bias 'oh, it must be from god'.

And also the hate family thing was supported by Bible. If you take it, you should take all other things from Bible also, so that you could understand it correctly. My explanation for this was, if one believes in Bible and wonders what that hate part means.

I think it is not reasonable tactic to take only some parts of Bible, and then reject others. It is certain that many problems occur if we take only some things from Bible, but not all. I thought the problem in this case was the teachings of Jesus, if one believes in him and God.

I cant at the moment give you evidence of anything. If you dont believe therefore what Bible says, I accept it. But I hope you dont then cherry pick parts from Bible and then try to prove something with them ignoring other parts.

That's the claim.. but is it true? And, if God did give it to us, why should I follow JESUS.. since there is the hindu gods, the Jewish version of the Abraham god, taoism, buddhism, and the Native american Indian verions of God.

I think no one has yet solved the Mnchhausen Trilemma therefore it is quite hard to answer is it really true. I believe so and it seems to me that this can be only taken by believing, what Bible says. If you dont like what Bible tells, then I think it doesnt really matter do you know or even believe.

If you dont want to take the whole Bible, I dont see why you would take some parts only. What I said, is for that case if you believe that hate part and wonder what that means, and think it is bad.

And I think only good reason why you should follow Jesus is, if you think it is good to follow him, and you accept his teachings. If you think some other is better option, you are free to go as you want, but you should be ready to take responsibility for your choices. Be honest to your self.

I dont understand why atheists make problem of something that Bible teaches and then, if someone explains it with Bible, they say, I dont believe in Bible and why would I believe it. Why ask if one dont believe and accept what Bible explains?

[1213]

Let's see legitimate legal documentation / public sworn statement that you have forsaken ALL your earthly possessions as this Story book jesus commanded you must do -

In the same way therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions. .105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Or else remain like ALL your predecessors, jesus' frauds!

I thought I already answered to this. Was there something wrong with my earlier answer?

What is that NET Story book? I would like to know, because it is quite different, if we compare it to for example this World English Bible that says: So therefore whoever of you who doesn't renounce all that he has, he can't be my disciple.

What do you think In the same way means? And also it would be good to know, what reasons there are to think that not one of you mean all peoples in all times, not just those who was there with Jesus?

And then, if you manage to show, those words really are something that I have to do now, what it means in reality, should I go to some desert?

But unfortunately to you, I cant live by cherry picking, so I have to do as I understand Jesus teaches.

[Charles Darwin]

Let's see legitimate legal documentation / public sworn statement that you have forsaken ALL your earthly possessions as this Story book jesus commanded you must do -

In the same way therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions. .105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Or else remain like ALL your predecessors, jesus' frauds!

what reasons there are to think that not one of you mean all peoples in all times, not just those who was there with Jesus?

maybe when jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me."

he meant only those people back then..so maybe an atheist who lives a good life tries to help people and spends more time trying to help people here and now rather than worrying about something he doesn't even kn ow exists will get into heaven more easily than a christian who spends all his life worrying none about the worldly well being of people and cares only for their afterlife..something jesus has already taken care of