Lets cut to the chase: Why should I be a Christian?

[notachance]

If you're a theist and are active on a forum called "Debating Christianity & Religion", then you probably believe that the value of Christianity is something that can be spoken for.

So here is the situation: I don't want you to tell me why you believe. I understand that for many of you, it has to do with a feeling in your heart, or inexpressible faith, or something along those lines, which would be hard to verbalize and to formulate into a cogent case for Christianity. As respectable a that is, and as good a reason it may be for you to believe, it doesn't help me.

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

Given the fact that I don't share with you that emotional connection with Christianity, given that I don't feel the presence of Jesus in my heart like you do, given that I guide my decision making and my opinion forming by rationality and common sense, what can you tell me along those lines to persuade me that Christianity is the way to go?

Why should I be a Christian? What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

[Goat]

Why would one want to be a disciple of Jesus is my question.. which is 'why follow Jesus'. What promises can you show 'came true', and can you show that 'following Jesus' will make any other promises come true? This seems to be more avoidance of my question than answering it.

Ok. Of course there may be many reasons to want to be disciple of Jesus. I think the best reason is that one thinks Jesus is good and his teaching is good and therefore person wants to follow Jesus.

And when I said about promises, I meant that one reason to follow is, if you want this to be true: I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

And as you may already know, I cant at the moment show you the eternal life. And I said it because thats one reason why someone may want to follow Jesus. But that is not in my opinion the best reason.

Is the teaching of Jesus good?? The whole 'You got to hate your parents' thing is not a good teaching. The parable in Luke about the King is not showing good moral values. The whole story about the demons and the pigs is showing a huge disregard for other people's property.. not a good moral reason.

And of course, the GOOD things are not unique to Jesus. Many of the behaviors are from the Hillel. In the case of the good messages that are tangible, others have promoted that behavior, and why follow a man when you should follow the
message, and that message is not even unique???

The gospel reader is saying 'Believe in my god, or you'll be SORRY after your dead'. .. and it can't be shown that this God actually exists, or that there will be any penalty for anything , or even existence after death.

I think it cant be said so. I think nobody is going to be sorry because they didnt believe, I believe many will be sorry, because they loved darkness more than light, because
this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. For everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions have been done in God.
John 3:19-21

And if I could show you that there is penalty or eternal life, it wouldnt help, because that knowledge wouldnt change that what you really think is good.

Yes.. indeed you have just confirmed the 'carrot/stick' approach, and you can't even show the penalty or the reward is true.

I find that 'you must abandon your family to follow God and Jesus' is highly immoral. The method of isolating people from friends and family IS a method that cults do use to control people though.. not for spirituality's sake, but for power over the person.

I think it could be as you say, especially if there wasnt said: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) and love your enemies, do good to those who hate you (Luke 6:27). But now that there are those parts also, it is not really isolating. It only puts things in right order, God first, and after that other things that rely on God.

Why should you 'put God first', and 'rely on God'?? This does go to show that the theological message is not consistent through the bible though.

[Composer]

Let's see legitimate legal documentation / public sworn statement that you have forsaken ALL your earthly possessions as this Story book jesus commanded you must do -

In the same way therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions. .105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Or else remain like ALL your predecessors, jesus' frauds!

I thought I already answered to this. Was there something wrong with my earlier answer?

Yes! it was also full of baloney excuses ultimately used to try to evade you doing as your jesus commands because you wish to become its disciple. i.e. . . . . therefore not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions. .105 (Luke. 14:33) NET Story book

Your constant disobedience and refusal exposes you as always as a fraudulent believer who doesn't obey the jesus you wish to be associated with.

What is that NET Story book? I would like to know, because it is quite different, if we compare it to for example this World English Bible that says: So therefore whoever of you who doesn't renounce all that he has, he can't be my disciple.

Preface to the NET bible -

The NET Bible

The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars " experts in the original biblical languages " who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. . . . .

Like ALL alleged ' holy-texts ' the legitimate evidence ANY of them are the words of ANY god(s) given to man remains a constant zero! hence I refer to them ALL correctly as Story books e.g. NET Story book, KJV Story book, NIV Story book, BoM Story book etc. etc.

Even using your own Story book version - So therefore whoever of you who doesn't renounce all that he has, he can't be my disciple World English Bible / WEB . it likewise condemns you as a fraud!

What do you think In the same way means?

It's a co-equal comparison!

And also it would be good to know, what reasons there are to think that not one of you mean all peoples in all times, not just those who was there with Jesus?

Are you claiming the standards required now for a genuine disciple are inferior to earlier times, that your alleged god(s) have lowered their standards to accomodate people like you becoming a disciple now and permits you and them to reject the passages that don't suit you? LOL!

Even using your own Story book version - So therefore whoever of you who doesn't renounce all that he has, he can't be my disciple World English Bible / WEB . it likewise condemns you as a fraud and your excuses empty & BS!

And then, if you manage to show, those words really are something that I have to do now, what it means in reality, should I go to some desert?

The more of you fraudulent believers go to live in an isolated desert the better for humanity but ask your holy-spirit deary, but then again it doesn't literally exist like your jesus doesn't literally outside of Story book land(s).

But unfortunately to you, I cant live by cherry picking, so I have to do as I understand Jesus teaches.

I dumped a truckload of cherries on your ideology and your legitimate evidence your jesus literally exists outside of Story book land(s) remains a constant zero!

Your ideology has as always been soundly and legitimately thrashed by me and by your very own preferred Story book version.

QED

[otseng]

Your constant disobedience and refusal exposes you as always as a fraudulent believer who doesn't obey the jesus you wish to be associated with.

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[1213]

maybe when jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me."

he meant only those people back then

I dont think so. There are no words that limit to whom the matter is.

In that other matter (Luke 14:33), there is said, not one of you, which may limit it to only for those who were there with Jesus. But maybe I am wrong with this, because there is also said:
Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

Because of that all that are baptized to disciple of Jesus should observe all things that he said to those who were with him. And therefore I think Luke 14:33 is also for modern people. But then there still is the question, what it means in practice, because we cant now leave all and go with Jesus as those who listened there Jesus could have done. If someone thinks that I should leave all, what should I do after that?

[1213]

The whole story about the demons and the pigs is showing a huge disregard for other people's property

What makes you think they were someones property? Bible tells only that there were some people that fed those pigs. It doesnt say they were someones property.

and that message is not even unique???

What you think is the message of Jesus?

Why should you 'put God first', and 'rely on God'??

According to Bible, one should do it because all things are in Gods hands. Even if you were the richest man in the world, your money wouldnt keep you alive, if God wouldnt let you live. That same thing is with all that is on earth. If you keep something in higher status than God and your life rely on your wealth or something like that, it is in fact idolatry.

[McCulloch]

The whole story about the demons and the pigs is showing a huge disregard for other people's property

What makes you think they were someones property? Bible tells only that there were some people that fed those pigs. It doesnt say they were someones property.

Matthew 8:28-34
[font=Georgia]When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. And they cried out, saying, What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time? Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. The demons began to entreat Him, saying, If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine. And He said to them, Go! And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.[/font]

Just who do you think that the herdsmen were in this story?
Those who tended the pigs [Common English Bible]
they that fed them [American Standard]
they that kept them [Douay-Rheims, KJV]
herdsmen [NASB, English Standard, Living ]
men who had been taking care of the pigs [Good News]
Those tending the pigs [NIV]
those who kept them [NKJV]

There does seem to be a consistent approach among the translators. Yes, in this story, there were people employed in keeping these pigs. Their report of their loss of livelihood seems to have upset the people of the town. How else do you read this?

and that message is not even unique???

What you think is the message of Jesus?

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

[1213]

The whole story about the demons and the pigs is showing a huge disregard for other people's property

What makes you think they were someones property? Bible tells only that there were some people that fed those pigs. It doesnt say they were someones property.

Matthew 8:28-34
[font=Georgia]When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. And they cried out, saying, What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time? Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. The demons began to entreat Him, saying, If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine. And He said to them, Go! And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.[/font]

Just who do you think that the herdsmen were in this story?
Those who tended the pigs [Common English Bible]
they that fed them [American Standard]
they that kept them [Douay-Rheims, KJV]
herdsmen [NASB, English Standard, Living ]
men who had been taking care of the pigs [Good News]
Those tending the pigs [NIV]
those who kept them [NKJV]

There does seem to be a consistent approach among the translators. Yes, in this story, there were people employed in keeping these pigs. Their report of their loss of livelihood seems to have upset the people of the town. How else do you read this?

First I want say, you have done nice job in that. It is always nice to see that things are brought profoundly out.

Yes I know that they were said to be herdsmen and they were taking care of them, but it doesnt necessary mean that those pigs were owned by someone. I understand it can be easily seen so, but it is interpretation that can be wrong. There could have been some other reason why they were taking care of them.

But if we accept that the pigs were owned by those people, we can think also next thing. It was wrong to Jews to eat pig meat. And I believe there is/was some good reason to that and therefore it can be seen that it was good thing that those pigs died. It may be that if those peoples would have eaten them, they could have got sick. And so, it is possible that Jesus made service to them. But of course, this is also only hypothetic assumption.

and that message is not even unique???

What you think is the message of Jesus?

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John the Baptist had the same message, but who else had also?