Islam The Compassionate Way Of Life

[HaLi8993]

God cannot be compared to mankind, hence His actions cannot be questioned. God is Fair, Just, Wise and All- Knowing. Therefore whatever He the Almighty does, is due to a legitimate reason and purpose although we may not be able to understand just why.  

A loving Mother may be forced to place her child under the knife for surgery due to a particular disease however there is no doubt she loves her child. Yet to those that do not understand the circumstances this is seen as cruel. It is God that is All-Knowing hence it is not for any of his creatures to question his doings but rather we will be questioned for ours.

So what then gives individuals the right to place their limited understandings above that of God, instead of trusting their Creator and believing and submitting with full conviction to His will. Instead mankind is arrogant and proud denying and believing that he is above the Creator in knowledge and understanding when God is the One that is the Creator of all that exists.

[HaLi8993]

@ Herictic

Basically your entire premise is this: 

It could be a land mass. 
It could be where a river meets a sea. 
It could be the Jordan river. 
But its definently pycnocline. 

So its a scientific miracle. 

I ask for evidence that the Quran is actually refering to pycnocline and your evidence is that you say it is...then give a science site about pycnoline. 

The explanations I mentioned actually fit the description better, since a land mass and the Joran river are a superior barrier.....yet since those would not be scientific miracles, you continue to cling to pycnocline. 

Gotcha. 

As for the mountains.... 

Quran states the mountains ARE the pegs. 
You change it to the mountains have pegs. 
Even though moutains dont, they have roots. 
Which is already mentioned in the Bible. 
Quran states mountains were placed upon the earth to prevent earthquakes. 
Yet mountains are the results of the earthquakes. 
Mountain regions actually have MORE earthquakes. 

So you find one example of a moutains under the ocean which MAY slow down an earthquake... 

And you claim its a miracle. 

Gotcha. 

Sorry Hal, I just cannot take you seriously.

Basically Herictic my statements of truth convey the accuracy of these verses in the Quran.

As I have made clear:

1) Yes it can be vast land, but something you keep ignoring is the second scholarly opinion as to what the barrier is referring too. The fact that the second opinion is that it is indeed a barrier that is not visible to the human eyes is quite remarkable. 

2) The fact that there is a barrier that prevents the mixing of the fresh water with the salty water even though the two waters meet at the mouths of rivers is also remarkable considering the description of the Quran that says:

“He has let loose the two seas (the salt water and the sweet) meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress"

3) It could be the Jordon River according to your understanding, yes

4) Can you show me where I have said that it is definitely a Pycnocline??, again if this was the case then there would not be two opinions would there?? The very fact that I have stated that there is another opinion would negate this idea of yours.

These things that are found in the Quran are no coincidences, especially that there are numerous verses in the Quran that clearly could not have been known 1400 years ago.

So basically you have:

1) Not been able to prove that the Quran could be referring to a pycnocline 

2) Not been able to prove that a pycnocline can be seen with the human eye

3) Not been able to prove that the Quran is wrong in regards to the two waters mixing in terms of both waters having their own individual traits.

4) Not been able to provide a copy of what Aristotle said in his book to be true.

5)  Not been able to prove that what is being referred in Genesis 1:6 is truth.

Gotcha!!!!!

So what have you proven Herictic? That it could be land mass?? If this is what you wish to believe you would be agreeing with one of the scholarly interpretations, therefore there is no reason why both opinions cannot be correct. As there is scientific evidence for both.

The very fact that a pycnocline means barrier explains itself the very fact that a pycnocline prevents the two seas transgressing explains itself. The evidence is clear.

As for what the Quran says about the Mountains, you are mistaken the Quran does not say Mountains are pegs nor did I say that Mountains have pegs what the Quran says is:

"Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?"  (Quran, 78:6-7)

Therefore it is a fact that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus mountains have a shape like a peg, meaning: mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. Which individual 1400 years ago would give you such a precise description??? If you could show me where it says this in the bible please? If you could show me how anyone would have known how the mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots?? 

"And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..." (Quran, 16:15)

Mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. So can you prove in the contrary??? Im interested to know where you got your info about earthquakes?? My link was not to say that Mountains prevent Earthquakes as you insist, the reason why I posted that was because it was an interesting read. Hence you need to stop assuming things and show me where you are getting this idea about earthquakes??

Furthermore seeing as you keep regurgitating what these Anti-Islamic websites are promoting than I shall end it by giving you a response and refutation from a website also.

In reply to the statement…‘That if mountains prevent earthquakes, how come you find earthquakes in mountainous regions?

The reply is, that - If I say that medical doctors, they prevent the sickness and disease in a human being, and if someone argues…"If doctors prevent the sickness and diseases in a human being, how come you find more sick people in the hospitals, where there are more doctors than at home - where there are no doctors."

Im sincerely advising you Herictic to use your own unbiased logic and reason to seek the truth instead of resorting to what people use to try and discredit the truth for whatever evil intentions they may have.

Thanks Herictic

[HaLi8993]

@ Danmark

So... if a verse comes from an 'evil' website the verse is somehow invalidated? LOL. 

"He has created the heavens without supports that you can see, and has cast (alqa) onto the earth firm mountains (rawasiya) lest it should shake with you (tamida bikum **) ..." 

In the Prophets (Al-Anibiya') 21:31, as one of seven warnings we read: 

"And We have set on the earth firm mountains (rawasiya ), lest it should shake with them (tamida bihim**)." 

Finally in the Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, among many "signs for the wise" we read: 

"And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains (rawasiya) lest it should shake with you ... (tamida bikum**)" 

The phrase "tamida bi" from mada, yamidu, is only used in the above three Quranic verses which are marked **. Hans Wehr's "Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" gives the meaning of the verbal phrase "mada bi" as: to shake something violently. 

"Mada bi" is the very form used in these verses. 

We see then that the believers and unbelievers are told that Allah has done this great thing. He has thrown down and placed the mountains so that the earth will not shake violently with them. Therefore, we must ask ourselves what the followers of Muhammad were supposed to understand. 
http://answering-islam.org/Campbell/s4c2a.html 

If the verses about the earth being stable neither refer to an absence of earthquakes nor to the Earth not moving on its axis or around the sun, what DO these verses refer to? 

It is much simpler to simply admit the truth, 'the prophet' was about to kill himself and in his mental state of confusion and depression he imagined the angel Gabriel talking to him, telling him he was a prophet. This is what happens when one like Muhammad focuses on himself. This leads to despair, to mental imbalance which leads to delusions of grandeur and angels, a typical religious experience, common to both Islam and Christianity

No, verses of the Quran are not invalidated what is invalidated is such websites and it's understating of the verse that is not is conjunction with the Quran and the true teachings of Islam.

So again what you have seemed to have done is copy and paste from an Anti-Islamic website, these things have already been refuted by other websites Danmark. I suggest you do your investigation. So really I ask you if there is any point of posting such things??

I have already mentioned what that particular verse means, It is referring to the Earthquake that will take place before the end of time is established, the hour, meaning the hour of judgement. This will be a  prelude to Resurrection.

Yes I would agree that it would be simpler to agree to the truth which is what I have dedicated my life too. Again telling me what Anti-Islamic websites proclaim about our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) will not benefit you, rather I would hope you would learn about his life before making any judgements. What you have said about the Prophet (peace be upon him) is nothing but untruth. I would really like to see how you would justify this. 

This attitude is no different from the attitude of those in the past, hence I will leave you with a couple of verses that would be comparable with this conversation for you to look into in your free time, God says:

QURAN: 15:6

And they say: "O you (Muhammad SAW ) to whom the Dhikr (the Quran) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man.

QURAN: 23:25

"He is not but a man possessed with madness, so wait concerning him for a time."

QURAN51:39

"But he turned away with his forces and said: A magician or a mad man"

QURAN: 51:52
 
"Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man"

QURAN54:24

"For they said: "A man! Alone from among us, that we are to follow? Truly, then we should be in error and distress or madness!"

[Allahakbar]

@ Danmark

So... if a verse comes from an 'evil' website the verse is somehow invalidated? LOL. 

"He has created the heavens without supports that you can see, and has cast (alqa) onto the earth firm mountains (rawasiya) lest it should shake with you (tamida bikum **) ..." 

In the Prophets (Al-Anibiya') 21:31, as one of seven warnings we read: 

"And We have set on the earth firm mountains (rawasiya ), lest it should shake with them (tamida bihim**)." 

Finally in the Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, among many "signs for the wise" we read: 

"And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains (rawasiya) lest it should shake with you ... (tamida bikum**)" 

The phrase "tamida bi" from mada, yamidu, is only used in the above three Quranic verses which are marked **. Hans Wehr's "Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" gives the meaning of the verbal phrase "mada bi" as: to shake something violently. 

"Mada bi" is the very form used in these verses. 

We see then that the believers and unbelievers are told that Allah has done this great thing. He has thrown down and placed the mountains so that the earth will not shake violently with them. Therefore, we must ask ourselves what the followers of Muhammad were supposed to understand. 
http://answering-islam.org/Campbell/s4c2a.html 

If the verses about the earth being stable neither refer to an absence of earthquakes nor to the Earth not moving on its axis or around the sun, what DO these verses refer to? 

It is much simpler to simply admit the truth, 'the prophet' was about to kill himself and in his mental state of confusion and depression he imagined the angel Gabriel talking to him, telling him he was a prophet. This is what happens when one like Muhammad focuses on himself. This leads to despair, to mental imbalance which leads to delusions of grandeur and angels, a typical religious experience, common to both Islam and Christianity

No, verses of the Quran are not invalidated what is invalidated is such websites and it's understating of the verse that is not is conjunction with the Quran and the true teachings of Islam.

So again what you have seemed to have done is copy and paste from an Anti-Islamic website, these things have already been refuted by other websites Danmark. I suggest you do your investigation. So really I ask you if there is any point of posting such things??

I have already mentioned what that particular verse means, It is referring to the Earthquake that will take place before the end of time is established, the hour, meaning the hour of judgement. This will be a  prelude to Resurrection.

Yes I would agree that it would be simpler to agree to the truth which is what I have dedicated my life too. Again telling me what Anti-Islamic websites proclaim about our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) will not benefit you, rather I would hope you would learn about his life before making any judgements. What you have said about the Prophet (peace be upon him) is nothing but untruth. I would really like to see how you would justify this. 

This attitude is no different from the attitude of those in the past, hence I will leave you with a couple of verses that would be comparable with this conversation for you to look into in your free time, God says:

QURAN: 15:6

And they say: "O you (Muhammad SAW ) to whom the Dhikr (the Quran) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man.

QURAN: 23:25

"He is not but a man possessed with madness, so wait concerning him for a time."

QURAN51:39

"But he turned away with his forces and said: A magician or a mad man"

QURAN: 51:52
 
"Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man"

QURAN54:24

"For they said: "A man! Alone from among us, that we are to follow? Truly, then we should be in error and distress or madness!"

If you were to translate those verses into English would they have any meaning then? Because as they stand you may as well have written blahgobbllee boojuyhjyrsn sjdyehts.

[HaLi8993]

@

If you were to translate those verses into English would they have any meaning then? Because as they stand you may as well have written blahgobbllee boojuyhjyrsn sjdyehts.

Mmmmmm I thought this was english lol, of course it would.

[Danmark]

@

If you were to translate those verses into English would they have any meaning then? Because as they stand you may as well have written blahgobbllee boojuyhjyrsn sjdyehts.

Mmmmmm I thought this was english lol, of course it would.

If those verses you quoted are accurately translated than I can understand how people can make the Quran mean anything they want it to mean. IF they are translated correctly, they either represent the ravings of a madman or English and Arabic are based on very different systems of logic.

[Suzy]

I hope its O.K. to comment here as a ‘relative’ newcomer to the study of Islam.
I am an atheist with a passion for open mindedness. [Show me proof of God and I am no longer an atheist]
As I read all the comments made by HaLi8993 and Allahakbar it only reinforces my developing worry about this religion.
I have started to read the Quran and also listen to debates on Islam, and read books on Islam. So you could say that I have started out as an unbiased newbie that is being led along only by the logic of the argument and the evidence available to me. [To all of us?]

Your continual Quoting from the Quran is to me like some Christians only quoting from there Bible but ‘with a vengeance!

The first thing that began to shock me about Islam is the cruelty to women. As I was typing that last sentence I had your heading in mind “Islam The Compassionate Way of life�

As with all things like this the ‘proof of the pudding is in the eating’ you can quote the Quran all day and all night [you do] but that does not compensate for the horrors done in the name of Islam.

But I am still on a learning curve here so I will listen to your counter arguments.

With respect.

[HaLi8993]

@ Danmark

If those verses you quoted are accurately translated than I can understand how people can make the Quran mean anything they want it to mean. IF they are translated correctly, they either represent the ravings of a madman or English and Arabic are based on very different systems of logic.

Danmark I like your profile picture!!! Very Nice. 

Anyway back to the topic, how is this possible Danmark??, when as Muslims we have books of  Tafsir which explain the meaning of each verse. We cannot draw our own interpretations to any verse without referring back to what the verse means and authentic evidence. You seem to have forgotten one thing Danmark, these are the words of God not the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him). The logic is very clear people past and present have made the same claims you are intending to make, however God has defended the Prophet (peace be upon him) and has reassured, aided and supported him throughout his mission in relaying the message. As one of the verses explicitly says:

QURAN: 51:52

"Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man" 

So logic tells me you are either a believer or a disbeliever.

[HaLi8993]

@ Suzy

I hope its O.K. to comment here as a ‘relative’ newcomer to the study of Islam. 
I am an atheist with a passion for open mindedness. [Show me proof of God and I am no longer an atheist] 
As I read all the comments made by HaLi8993 and Allahakbar it only reinforces my developing worry about this religion. 
I have started to read the Quran and also listen to debates on Islam, and read books on Islam. So you could say that I have started out as an unbiased newbie that is being led along only by the logic of the argument and the evidence available to me. [To all of us?] 

Your continual Quoting from the Quran is to me like some Christians only quoting from there Bible but ‘with a vengeance! 

The first thing that began to shock me about Islam is the cruelty to women. As I was typing that last sentence I had your heading in mind “Islam The Compassionate Way of life� 

As with all things like this the ‘proof of the pudding is in the eating’ you can quote the Quran all day and all night [you do] but that does not compensate for the horrors done in the name of Islam. 

But I am still on a learning curve here so I will listen to your counter arguments. 

With respect.

Welcome Suzy!!

It is good to hear that you are reading about Islam with an open mind, I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that there are many deviant sects in Islam to be cautious of, in order not be mislead into believing in something that is not prescribed in Islam and do not represent the true teachings of Islam as one can easily be confused and lead astray. So I would suggest that you refer what you read back to the Quran and Sunnah to clarify and confirm the truth and ask knowledgeable people with sound understanding of the religion, if there are any matters that may cause confusion or misunderstandings, may God guide you to what is the truth.

What are your worries about Islam??

In regards to me quoting from the Quran and Sunnah, we as Muslims believe that the Quran are the true words of God and the Sunnah are the narrations of the Prophet (peace be upon him), whom was sent by God to teach us the religion of God (Islam), the final religion to all of mankind. Therefore anything else that is contrary to this as a form of belief system that contradicts with the Quran and Sunnah is rejected as this is not from God and merely man made ideologies and beliefs. This is the reason we quote from the Quran and Sunnah. What else would there be to quote from when this is what we believe??? Islam is a whole way of life unlike Christianity hence all the answers we need can be found in the Quran and Sunnah.

I would also like to clarify what you have mentioned about cruelty to women, I'm not exactly sure what you have been reading, but Islam condemns cruelty to women. If you could show me where cruelty in any way is supported or taught in Islam I would understand your concern, however this is not the case in Islam. So in any sense the heading of this thread is most appropriate considering what Islam really teaches. This is another reason why we quote and refer back to the Quran and Sunnah to prove what we are saying to be correct. As one needs to refer back to the source in which he believes to be  true.

Furthermore if there are horrors committed in the name of Islam, and they are not part of Islam or it's teachings how can Islam be blamed??? If people take matters into their own hands and commit crimes again how can Islam be blamed?? Ones misunderstanding and ignorance cannot represent an entire religion. We cannot blame the faults of others on Islam.

I hope I have been able to convey what I mean and you have understood what I have intended on saying, thanks Suzy.

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 376 by HaLi8993]

I have a lot of studying still to do so my reply will be brief and incomplete.

To start with I have my own copy of the Quran to cross check the debaters and books on Islam that I have read so far. I will be open minded and non judgmental.

It is beyond all doubt that there are many sincere and good Muslims.
I don’t intend to go into a lengthy explanation of the reasons why I am worried about this religion having only got so far in my studies of this religion.

But [and it’s a big but!] all reason has led me to believe that large parts of the Muslim world are horrible places to live in [especially for woman]

More than this it seems to be a dangerous religion too. If I say to you “what about the suicide bombers?� you are probably going to say “They were not true Muslims� Well all I can say is that they were definitely Muslims doing what they do in the name of there religion, because of there religion and in the name of Allah. There is no question about that. But they were Muslims that probably interpret the Quran diferantaly than you do. There are a lot of factions in Islam.

There are two points that are crucial in debating Islam for me.
First, I am an atheist. I do not recognise any religious books as being the word of God and I never will!
Two, the testing of this religion is not only debating the Quran, it is what is happening in the name of Islam, what is being done by Muslims even if you say they are not true Muslims. [They would say the same thing about you I suspect]

So far it does not look good for Islam.

One final point, I actually know a woman that went through hell as a child under the strict Muslim way of life in her country. [No, I am not basing my beliefs on just this one case] So I have got to the point that if you deny the suffering of woman under Islam then I will never debate or respond to your posts again. Sorry but that’s how strongly I feel. The Quran might not condemn women to a miserable life [although I am still studying this] but Islamic countries do.

I respect you; I do not respect your religion.

[Danmark]

@ Danmark

If those verses you quoted are accurately translated than I can understand how people can make the Quran mean anything they want it to mean. IF they are translated correctly, they either represent the ravings of a madman or English and Arabic are based on very different systems of logic.

Danmark I like your profile picture!!! Very Nice. 

Anyway back to the topic, how is this possible Danmark??, when as Muslims we have books of  Tafsir which explain the meaning of each verse. We cannot draw our own interpretations to any verse without referring back to what the verse means and authentic evidence. You seem to have forgotten one thing Danmark, these are the words of God not the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him). The logic is very clear people past and present have made the same claims you are intending to make, however God has defended the Prophet (peace be upon him) and has reassured, aided and supported him throughout his mission in relaying the message. As one of the verses explicitly says:

QURAN: 51:52

"Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man" 

So logic tells me you are either a believer or a disbeliever.

Of course. And I am a disbeliever.

But I am a believer in the beauty of nature. I took the photo at a place I camped at for free for five days. Along a beautiful stretch of the Salmon river in N. California in a national forest. The weather was warm enough it made the icy water a joy to swim in, or just sit in while reading. There is something very special to me about camping alone in a place like that. Just birds and squirrels and lizards for company. Wild goats and bears too, tho' I didn't see any. Easy to see why people see the hand of god in such a scene. To me it is even more wondrous to acknowledge it came to be without conscious design.