Are Swinging and Swapping Immoral?

[Slopeshoulder]

This is a serious question that I'd like to discuss soberly. This is not a joke thread.

There's an article in today's NY Times about a guy in China who has been given hard time in the big house for hosting orgies. He even earned their quote of the day. Let's debate the morality of his lifestyle, from a religion and values perspective.

CAVEAT: no R-rated material allowed. Also, personally I'm gleefully monogamous and plan to stay that way. I have no skin in the game (no pun intended). But the topic is ethically interesting and timely.

Option 1: the Bible says this kind of behavior is really really horrifically sinful, consistently. And tradition affirms it, as do mainream religious mores. End of story.

Option 2: there's no god, but it's unethical.

Option 3: there's no god, but it's ethical.

Option 4: there is a God, but it's ethical anyway.

For the sake of debate, I'll argue for option four.
Here's how:
First, assume there's a God for the sake of discussion. Now...

- Point one: the overarching themes in judeo-christian tradition regarding human relations, sexual and otherwise, emphasize the centrality of love, respect, charity, consent, mutuality, fairness, non-abuse, non-exploitation, non-violence, sobriety, justice, honesty, inclusion, human flourishing, not-objectifying others, etc. It's the themes that matter. It's not about what the Bible says, it about what it means. To mean anything it needs to be reappropriated for each generation.

- Point 2: The minor themes have to do with proscriptions and prohibitions
of things like pre and extramarital sex, licentiousness, lust in the heart, etc. But, like not eating pork, these are associated with ritual purity in that cultural context(a spiritual notion) and pragmatism and health (in other words, not spreading desease, creating unwanted children, blurring tribal boundaries, inspiring jealousy and attendant violence, and undermining property boundaries: including the mrs.). These specifics matter less and are timebound.

- Point 3: Within boundaries, sex is good and a gift (in scripture and tradition). Asceticism is not mandated, merely a choice for some.

As to point 1: swingers and swappers can meet all these criteria (where love is defined broadly as charity, empathy, and inclusion, as it is in scripture and tradition, and not in the modern romantic sense). Moreover, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy and define human connection broadly and optimistically.

As to point 2: In modern times, non-tribal civil structures, birth control technology, and law are more evolved, so most of these decontextualized and ancient specific proscriptions and prohibitions no longer inhere or apply to us today. Plus, as above, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy.

As to point 3: so S&S may not be advisable, or enjoyable, or for me or you, but it is not inherently immoral or unethical. An imagined religoius swinger and swapper association is not prima facie oxymoronic. It even might sacrilize the behavior, which is not unknown to world religious history.

We're specifically talking about swinging and swapping only.
We're NOT talking about cheating, pedophilia, bestiality, S&M, or homosexuality in this thread. So so don't lump them in without a reason.

Please debate. I'm pretty sure that in this forum appeals to scripture as authoritative are allowed, but please adress the issues up for debate as outlined in the options above if you select option 1.

[Goat]

slopeshoulder... is not exactly a spring chicken.

Oh man, that hurt.

I don't know about that. You youngums should still listen to your elders.

[Flail]

This is a serious question that I'd like to discuss soberly. This is not a joke thread.

There's an article in today's NY Times about a guy in China who has been given hard time in the big house for hosting orgies. He even earned their quote of the day. Let's debate the morality of his lifestyle, from a religion and values perspective.

CAVEAT: no R-rated material allowed. Also, personally I'm gleefully monogamous and plan to stay that way. I have no skin in the game (no pun intended). But the topic is ethically interesting and timely.

Option 1: the Bible says this kind of behavior is really really horrifically sinful, consistently. And tradition affirms it, as do mainream religious mores. End of story.

Option 2: there's no god, but it's unethical.

Option 3: there's no god, but it's ethical.

Option 4: there is a God, but it's ethical anyway.

For the sake of debate, I'll argue for option four.
Here's how:
First, assume there's a God for the sake of discussion. Now...

- Point one: the overarching themes in judeo-christian tradition regarding human relations, sexual and otherwise, emphasize the centrality of love, respect, charity, consent, mutuality, fairness, non-abuse, non-exploitation, non-violence, sobriety, justice, honesty, inclusion, human flourishing, not-objectifying others, etc. It's the themes that matter. It's not about what the Bible says, it about what it means. To mean anything it needs to be reappropriated for each generation.

- Point 2: The minor themes have to do with proscriptions and prohibitions
of things like pre and extramarital sex, licentiousness, lust in the heart, etc. But, like not eating pork, these are associated with ritual purity in that cultural context(a spiritual notion) and pragmatism and health (in other words, not spreading desease, creating unwanted children, blurring tribal boundaries, inspiring jealousy and attendant violence, and undermining property boundaries: including the mrs.). These specifics matter less and are timebound.

- Point 3: Within boundaries, sex is good and a gift (in scripture and tradition). Asceticism is not mandated, merely a choice for some.

As to point 1: swingers and swappers can meet all these criteria (where love is defined broadly as charity, empathy, and inclusion, as it is in scripture and tradition, and not in the modern romantic sense). Moreover, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy and define human connection broadly and optimistically.

As to point 2: In modern times, non-tribal civil structures, birth control technology, and law are more evolved, so most of these decontextualized and ancient specific proscriptions and prohibitions no longer inhere or apply to us today. Plus, as above, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy.

As to point 3: so S&S may not be advisable, or enjoyable, or for me or you, but it is not inherently immoral or unethical. An imagined religoius swinger and swapper association is not prima facie oxymoronic. It even might sacrilize the behavior, which is not unknown to world religious history.

We're specifically talking about swinging and swapping only.
We're NOT talking about cheating, pedophilia, bestiality, S&M, or homosexuality in this thread. So so don't lump them in without a reason.

Please debate. I'm pretty sure that in this forum appeals to scripture as authoritative are allowed, but please adress the issues up for debate as outlined in the options above if you select option 1.

Whether there is a God(s) or there isn't, for me at least, is beside the point. Consenting adults are not morally wrong to swap and swing together any more than if they decided to play sports together or go to dinner and a movie. It's entertainment, a kind of virtual reality with sex. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

[Flail]

This is a serious question that I'd like to discuss soberly. This is not a joke thread.

There's an article in today's NY Times about a guy in China who has been given hard time in the big house for hosting orgies. He even earned their quote of the day. Let's debate the morality of his lifestyle, from a religion and values perspective.

CAVEAT: no R-rated material allowed. Also, personally I'm gleefully monogamous and plan to stay that way. I have no skin in the game (no pun intended). But the topic is ethically interesting and timely.

Option 1: the Bible says this kind of behavior is really really horrifically sinful, consistently. And tradition affirms it, as do mainream religious mores. End of story.

Option 2: there's no god, but it's unethical.

Option 3: there's no god, but it's ethical.

Option 4: there is a God, but it's ethical anyway.

For the sake of debate, I'll argue for option four.
Here's how:
First, assume there's a God for the sake of discussion. Now...

- Point one: the overarching themes in judeo-christian tradition regarding human relations, sexual and otherwise, emphasize the centrality of love, respect, charity, consent, mutuality, fairness, non-abuse, non-exploitation, non-violence, sobriety, justice, honesty, inclusion, human flourishing, not-objectifying others, etc. It's the themes that matter. It's not about what the Bible says, it about what it means. To mean anything it needs to be reappropriated for each generation.

- Point 2: The minor themes have to do with proscriptions and prohibitions
of things like pre and extramarital sex, licentiousness, lust in the heart, etc. But, like not eating pork, these are associated with ritual purity in that cultural context(a spiritual notion) and pragmatism and health (in other words, not spreading desease, creating unwanted children, blurring tribal boundaries, inspiring jealousy and attendant violence, and undermining property boundaries: including the mrs.). These specifics matter less and are timebound.

- Point 3: Within boundaries, sex is good and a gift (in scripture and tradition). Asceticism is not mandated, merely a choice for some.

As to point 1: swingers and swappers can meet all these criteria (where love is defined broadly as charity, empathy, and inclusion, as it is in scripture and tradition, and not in the modern romantic sense). Moreover, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy and define human connection broadly and optimistically.

As to point 2: In modern times, non-tribal civil structures, birth control technology, and law are more evolved, so most of these decontextualized and ancient specific proscriptions and prohibitions no longer inhere or apply to us today. Plus, as above, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy.

As to point 3: so S&S may not be advisable, or enjoyable, or for me or you, but it is not inherently immoral or unethical. An imagined religoius swinger and swapper association is not prima facie oxymoronic. It even might sacrilize the behavior, which is not unknown to world religious history.

We're specifically talking about swinging and swapping only.
We're NOT talking about cheating, pedophilia, bestiality, S&M, or homosexuality in this thread. So so don't lump them in without a reason.

Please debate. I'm pretty sure that in this forum appeals to scripture as authoritative are allowed, but please adress the issues up for debate as outlined in the options above if you select option 1.

Whether there is a God(s) or there isn't, for me at least, is beside the point. Consenting adults are not morally wrong to swap and swing together any more than if they decided to play sports together or go to dinner and a movie. It's entertainment, a kind of virtual reality with sex. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

[melissa]

This is a serious question that I'd like to discuss soberly. This is not a joke thread.]

There's an article in today's NY Times about a guy in China who has been given hard time in the big house for hosting orgies. He even earned their quote of the day. Let's debate the morality of his lifestyle, from a religion and values perspective.

CAVEAT: no R-rated material allowed. Also, personally I'm gleefully monogamous and plan to stay that way. I have no skin in the game (no pun intended). But the topic is ethically interesting and timely.

Option 1: the Bible says this kind of behavior is really really horrifically sinful, consistently. And tradition affirms it, as do mainream religious mores. End of story.

Option 2: there's no god, but it's unethical.

Option 3: there's no god, but it's ethical.

Option 4: there is a God, but it's ethical anyway.

For the sake of debate, I'll argue for option four.
Here's how:
First, assume there's a God for the sake of discussion. Now...

- Point one: the overarching themes in judeo-christian tradition regarding human relations, sexual and otherwise, emphasize the centrality of love, respect, charity, consent, mutuality, fairness, non-abuse, non-exploitation, non-violence, sobriety, justice, honesty, inclusion, human flourishing, not-objectifying others, etc. It's the themes that matter. It's not about what the Bible says, it about what it means. To mean anything it needs to be reappropriated for each generation.

- Point 2: The minor themes have to do with proscriptions and prohibitions
of things like pre and extramarital sex, licentiousness, lust in the heart, etc. But, like not eating pork, these are associated with ritual purity in that cultural context(a spiritual notion) and pragmatism and health (in other words, not spreading desease, creating unwanted children, blurring tribal boundaries, inspiring jealousy and attendant violence, and undermining property boundaries: including the mrs.). These specifics matter less and are timebound.

- Point 3: Within boundaries, sex is good and a gift (in scripture and tradition). Asceticism is not mandated, merely a choice for some.

As to point 1: swingers and swappers can meet all these criteria (where love is defined broadly as charity, empathy, and inclusion, as it is in scripture and tradition, and not in the modern romantic sense). Moreover, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy and define human connection broadly and optimistically.

As to point 2: In modern times, non-tribal civil structures, birth control technology, and law are more evolved, so most of these decontextualized and ancient specific proscriptions and prohibitions no longer inhere or apply to us today. Plus, as above, swingers and swappers have overcome jealousy.

As to point 3: so S&S may not be advisable, or enjoyable, or for me or you, but it is not inherently immoral or unethical. An imagined religoius swinger and swapper association is not prima facie oxymoronic. It even might sacrilize the behavior, which is not unknown to world religious history.

We're specifically talking about swinging and swapping only.
We're NOT talking about cheating, pedophilia, bestiality, S&M, or homosexuality in this thread. So so don't lump them in without a reason.

Please debate. I'm pretty sure that in this forum appeals to scripture as authoritative are allowed, but please adress the issues up for debate as outlined in the options above if you select option 1.

[Sum1sGruj]

One thing about the Bible, which many atheists tend to get annoyed by and dodge as a result, is that a lot of it's morals are based on a grand scale, and individual liberty often gets hammered quite effectively by it.

See, on the surface, orgies and such seem to be okay in the sense that it is simply entertainment.
But what has become of these things since it's conception, among other sexual things?

There's STD's for one. If people were sexually responsible in the way the Bible describes it, there wouldn't be such a pandemic of these diseases.
Another would be depression and suicide. Some who go to orgies and have sex with many people are unhappy and/or so addicted to sex that nothing else really fulfills them. Sex is a very powerful thing, and can be compared with drugs because it is addictive, must be raised in dosage or experiment to remain effective, and makes some dependent on it.
We simply just make a separation in thought to dismiss the idea that these things are not so., that they are harmless and are due to nothing deep within ourselves.

There is plenty wrong with it, on the grand scale. And what is the grand scale? A mass of individuals.

Some put a negative idea with God, connecting Him with ideas of tyranny and whatnot, but that's simply not true. God is the infinite wisdom and purity above all. He sees everything and not just what we observe.
These biblical morals all have their appropriate importance behind them, one just has to try to see everything from God's perspective.

[Flail]

Sum1'sGuru wrote:

There's STD's for one. If people were sexually responsible in the way the Bible describes it, there wouldn't be such a pandemic of these diseases.

It might have helped if whoever wrote the Bible would have had enough foresight to include some instruction on birth control and condoms.

Sum1'sGuru wrote:

Some who go to orgies and have sex with many people are unhappy and/or so addicted to sex that nothing else really fulfills them. Sex is a very powerful thing, and can be compared with drugs because it is addictive, must be raised in dosage or experiment to remain effective, and makes some dependent on it.

Perhaps, but so long as it's not illegal it is none of our business.

[Sum1sGruj]

Sum1'sGuru wrote:

There's STD's for one. If people were sexually responsible in the way the Bible describes it, there wouldn't be such a pandemic of these diseases.

It might have helped if whoever wrote the Bible would have had enough foresight to include some instruction on birth control and condoms.

Those things are simply byproducts of not heeding the warnings in the Bible.

Sum1'sGuru wrote:

Some who go to orgies and have sex with many people are unhappy and/or so addicted to sex that nothing else really fulfills them. Sex is a very powerful thing, and can be compared with drugs because it is addictive, must be raised in dosage or experiment to remain effective, and makes some dependent on it.

Perhaps, but so long as it's not illegal it is none of our business.

Just because something is not illegal does not mean it doesn't carry consequences. In fact, that is what got mankind in trouble in the first place. Relying on fallible laws.
Now when you do something sexually immoral, you may end up paying the price of all those before you. And that is why you must rely on condoms and such.

See, the world just becomes more volatile and must patch itself up. But sooner or later, it comes to head. It does one good to marinate on that, because it's sketched in every aspect of history.
Or not. Not doing so is another thing that got mankind into trouble in the first place.

See the irony?

[Strider324]

One thing about the Bible, which many atheists tend to get annoyed by and dodge as a result, is that a lot of it's morals are based on a grand scale, and individual liberty often gets hammered quite effectively by it.

See, on the surface, orgies and such seem to be okay in the sense that it is simply entertainment.
But what has become of these things since it's conception, among other sexual things?

There's STD's for one. If people were sexually responsible in the way the Bible describes it, there wouldn't be such a pandemic of these diseases.
Another would be depression and suicide. Some who go to orgies and have sex with many people are unhappy and/or so addicted to sex that nothing else really fulfills them. Sex is a very powerful thing, and can be compared with drugs because it is addictive, must be raised in dosage or experiment to remain effective, and makes some dependent on it.
We simply just make a separation in thought to dismiss the idea that these things are not so., that they are harmless and are due to nothing deep within ourselves.

There is plenty wrong with it, on the grand scale. And what is the grand scale? A mass of individuals.

Some put a negative idea with God, connecting Him with ideas of tyranny and whatnot, but that's simply not true. God is the infinite wisdom and purity above all. He sees everything and not just what we observe.
These biblical morals all have their appropriate importance behind them, one just has to try to see everything from God's perspective.

Hebrew leaders throughout the OT employed dozens of concubines and enjoyed orgiastic rights with no admonishment from Yahweh. The incidence of STD's is no more prevelant among swingers than it is among the general population of christian husbands and wives who regularly cheat on their spouses. I know this because I have 6 years as a Communicable Disease Investigator. So, unless you have some relevant and objective data to support these contentions of yours, I'll consider them completely unfounded.

The only Grand Scale that seems relevant is the one in which parents have the decency and intelligence to educate their children as to how to engage in responsible sexuality, recognizing the immutable fact that kids will have bad or dangerous sex as readily as they will safe sex. Knowledge is Power, and I'm always curious as to how theists justify their deity's attempts to limit knowledge....

[JoeyKnothead]

Are swinging and swapping immoral?

Only if ya end up with the last chick there ya wanted to be with.