Do mormons really belive in those crazy things?

[gabbeTroop]

Indians = lost tribe of Isreals
Magic underpaints = ....

[Katzpur]

Yes. Exactly. You have just given a list of attributes that set the LDS in a positive light. And that is the message my friend recieved and imbibed. But the criticsm is that the LDS do this in a systematic way to the point of indoctination.

Honestly, it's hard for me to read that without being just a tad amused.

Yes there was a huge emphasis on education and self development but all this is within the confines and limitations of Chruch doctrine and attitudes. At every turn, meeting, testament, Tuesday night a continual and perpetual positive reinforcement leaving no room for counter ideas or reflection on the distance between "what is allowed" and what really goes on, and "what is encouraged" to what is not not encouraged"....everthing is postive positive positive reinforcement. The reality was that the Church filled her social life, her home life and her free moments, it did not matter the church never told her not to associate only with fellow church members, in practice that was what happened...which was fine because they sound like very nice people.... and on one level this was very natural harmless meeting of like minded folk....but something goes on at another level...a gentle yet persistent separation from family, friends, counter ideas, and a steering away from negative influences. At the time my friend did not see, now she does. Sometimes though she also finds herself defending this process, seeing it as a sincere attempt by the LDS to protect each other from bad influences.

About all I can say is that absolutely nothing in her experience resembles anything in mine. I don't know, maybe it was because I was raised in the Church and she was a convert, but even living in Salt Lake City, headquarters of the Church, where it would have been extremely easy to simply surround myself with people who all believed the same way, I never felt that this was what was expected of me or that I was somehow risking exposure to "bad influences" if I were to step outside of the LDS comfort zone.

Actually very close. And think about it. She’s what six years in, she is temple worthy, and it is the first time she’s seen or even been aware there was critical material. Her experiences within the LDS was that closeting.

Well, to be perfectly honest, it's hard for me to the missionaries saying something like, "So, that's what we believe about God, about Jesus Christ, about what is expected of us, about salvation, etc. etc. Oh, and by the way, some of our early leaders made some racist statements." There is no Christian Church in existance today that doesn't have a very interesting history. The fact that these things aren't brought up as part of the missionary discussions isn't surprising at all to me. Again, though, I learned about most of these "skeletons" -- both the real ones and the fabricated ones -- as I grew up. As I was made aware of them, I started looking into not only the claims, but the circumstances, etc. behind them. And, realizing that none of our leaders has ever claimed to be infallible, I cut them some slack and got on with what really mattered -- what I was hearing taught in church week after week, month after month and year after year.

Yes it is just one persons experience. But she is a critic who is not the enemy of the LDS. She still occasionally meets up with them.

Well, I've always believed that people need to find their own path. It would have been a mistake for her to remain part of the Church if she felt the way you said she did.

Though I also note that French Parliamentary Commission list the LDS as a cult. That’s a body of folk who are an institution of a democratic government. Are they another enemy?

I don't know. "Cult" is such a useless word.

Criticisms include methods of evangelization, progressive split with family and friends, women status, lack of free thought and children education considered as indoctrination.

If this is from the French Parliamentary Commission, I would have to say that they are extremely misinformed. The bit about "progressive split with family and friends" is an outright lie. There is not one bit of truth in that statement. And the rest of it is obviously (at least to me) a matter of opinion.

[Katzpur]

I'm going to give you a reading assignment to read the last chapter of Ether.

You're what?

It says that all the people in the land were involved in many battles. Whether or not that means the entire continent I don't know but it would certainly mean all the people in a certain radius of where all the battles were, and since the final battle involved millions I would think the radius would be pretty large. This is the location where the B of M says Lehi arrived and he arrived just as this last battle was ending. There was noone for Lehis descendants to intermarry with.

I'm seriously trying to figure out how to respond to this post. Are you saying you believe that the American continent (i.e. North America, Central America, and South America) was not populated in 600 B.C.? And that you're basing this on the book of Ether?

[Furrowed Brow]

The bit about "progressive split with family and friends" is an outright lie.

Outright lie? It is probably a lie in Salt Lake where Mormonism dominates and it may not be true of your experience. Now for the rest of the world where mormonsim is very much a minority religion. There was certainly a slow erosion between my friend and familly.

As for the accusation of "closeting" yes her eders did fail to mention one or two negative things, and actually she always talks postively about the missionaires she new, individually she very much liked them.

But we are not really talking about oops didn't we mention that.

[sleepyhead]

Hello katzpur,

>>>I'm seriously trying to figure out how to respond to this post. Are you saying you believe that the American continent (i.e. North America, Central America, and South America) was not populated in 600 B.C.? And that you're basing this on the book of Ether?<<<

No. I'm saying that according to the B of M, and specifically the book of Ether, says that there were no more people in the land when Lehi arrived. How much area this entails is open for discussion, however, since these battles resulted in the death of millions, it seems that this area would be pretty large.

[Katzpur]

Furrowed Brow and sleepyhead,

It's been one of those days. I'll respond tomorrow. I'll also respond to your personal message tomorrow, Furrowed Brow.

[Katzpur]

Outright lie? It is probably a lie in Salt Lake where Mormonism dominates and it may not be true of your experience. Now for the rest of the world where mormonsim is very much a minority religion. There was certainly a slow erosion between my friend and familly.

Furrowed Brow, I'm going to write a longer personal message to you. This quick reply is just to clear up this matter in the event that anyone else reading might be left with the wrong impression.

There is probably nothing in the world, short of a love for God Himself, that Latter-day Saints value more highly than family. Our leaders probably stress the need for strong, closeknit families more than they do just about anything else. It doesn't matter whether the families are split between a number of different religions, either. We are counseled to do everything in our power to strengthen our families. My sister, who was raised LDS, right alongside me, became an agnostic in her late teens. She actually leaned strongly towards atheism for most of the next 35 years. Neither of my two grown children (a son, 30 and a daughter 28) have been practicing members of the Church for years. There has never been a time when I have been encouraged to distance myself from them. I must know hundreds of LDS families who have either parents or children who are not members of the Church. I have never heard of a case in which the Church was either purposefully or subtly trying to drive a wedge between them. It simply runs contrary to everything we stand for. If your friend's experience was different, I can't explain why. I can only say that it is not what the Church would have wanted.

As for the accusation of "closeting" yes her eders did fail to mention one or two negative things, and actually she always talks postively about the missionaires she new, individually she very much liked them.

But we are not really talking about oops didn't we mention that.

Okay, without knowing more specifics that you've shared, I really can't comment on this.

[Katzpur]

No. I'm saying that according to the B of M, and specifically the book of Ether, says that there were no more people in the land when Lehi arrived. How much area this entails is open for discussion, however, since these battles resulted in the death of millions, it seems that this area would be pretty large.

Yes, how much area this entails is definitely the issue. Personally, I believe (and I think that anthropological evidence supports the fact) that there were a number of large groups of people on the American continent and had been for many years before Lehi arrived. I don't believe there's even the remotest of possiblities that every group of people in the Americas was extinct at any time after the first ones arrived.

[Kuan]

All I have heard is "magic bulletproof underpants" is this a definition of it or is it not? relabelling something doesn`t make it more not "magic bulletproof underpants"

The reason for that comes from world war 2 where there are reports of soldiers being hit by a bullet and it shattering against the garments.

[Katzpur]

All I have heard is "magic bulletproof underpants" is this a definition of it or is it not? relabelling something doesn`t make it more not "magic bulletproof underpants"

The reason for that comes from world war 2 where there are reports of soldiers being hit by a bullet and it shattering against the garments.

But are the reports reliable? I would be awfully careful about posting heresay. It'll get you every time.

[Kuan]

All I have heard is "magic bulletproof underpants" is this a definition of it or is it not? relabelling something doesn`t make it more not "magic bulletproof underpants"

The reason for that comes from world war 2 where there are reports of soldiers being hit by a bullet and it shattering against the garments.

But are the reports reliable? I would be awfully careful about posting heresay. It'll get you every time.

Sorry, yeah it is heresay. I was just explaining thats probably what he heard.