Animal food-Is it acceptable?

[sin_is_fun]

I cannot come to a decision on this.Humans have multiplied to a huge extent.We dominate the world.All other animal species have become our slaves.We use horses,dogs and guinea pigs as our slaves.We kill animals very cruelly.

We can survive without animal food.All nutrients like protein,vitamins can be got at from plant foods and supplements.So why is it that we still justify eating meat?

[Jose]

I cannot come to a decision on this.Humans have multiplied to a huge extent.We dominate the world.All other animal species have become our slaves.We use horses,dogs and guinea pigs as our slaves.We kill animals very cruelly.

We can survive without animal food.All nutrients like protein,vitamins can be got at from plant foods and supplements.So why is it that we still justify eating meat?

If you dont get soy protein you can very well live with a protein supplement/multivitamin now.The reason we want to cut off a food source is the cruelty and pain it inflicts on animals.When we only had that option we were justified in eating meat.But now we have so many other options there is no more justification in killing them.

There are some misconceptions here. It's important to clear them up.

where do protein supplements come from? Look at the list of ingredients. They're usually either soy protein or whey protein. Soy brings us up against ST88's concern about the fungus. Whey gets us back to animals--ya gotta have cows to get the milk to separate into curds and whey. The curds become cheese; the whey becomes protein supplements.

where do multivitamins come from? Multinational drug companies. This is ironic. As it turns out, a lot of people choose vegetarianism or veganism because they don't like the Big Companies like the Meat Industry. They tend to be against genetic engineering as well, and to dislike multinational corporations. They tend to think of Drug Companies as bad guys, and to think of herbal medicine as good and natural. They tend to buy lots of nutritional supplements for this reason, without realizing that the nutritional supplement industry is among the most deceitful of Big Corporations.

what about vitamin B12? Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria. Herbivores have long enough digestive systems (necessary to handle plant material) that they have plenty of intestinal bacteria and plenty of time to absorb B12. Carnivores don't. That's one of the reasons that dogs eat feces--to get another shot at the B12. We have short digestive systems too, and cannot absorb enough B12. So, we need a source of it. Should we do like dogs? Plants don't make it. The normal source is: eat herbivores. Eggs, milk, and herbivore meat have enough B12 for us. Without these sources, we're dependent on Multinational Drug Companies...or, we could do like dogs.

what about those essential amino acids? Because humans have relied on hunting as a source of protein for so long, we have accumulated mutations in our amino acid biosynthesis genes. We cannot produce lysine, methionine, or a number of others. That's fine if we eat meat (or eggs or milk protein). It's not fine if we try to get enough protein from, say, grains. They have protein--all seeds do--but they are woefully deficient in lysine (as far as we are concerned). This is true of the "vegan steak substitute" called seitan, which is "tofu made from wheat," or wheat gluten. The amount of protein is not all there is to consider. There's also the amino acid distribution in it. Most seeds are pretty non-uniform in their distribution (and seeds are the only plant material that have even modest amounts of protein). We can eat beans and rice, or some analog thereof, but that still isn't enough to attain our full growth potential (which is why Americans think people from certain other countries are "short"--they don't get as much protein, and thus don't grow as well). The only plant material with close to a good distribution of amino acids is soy protein. To have enough, we need to convert it to tofu. In short, to get enough of the essential amino acids without animal protein is, quite frankly, a serious challenge.

And yet...growing food for animals uses a huge amount of agricultural land, and the animals produce huge amounts of sewage. We seem to use antibiotics routinely in our animal husbandry, and therefore select for antibiotic resistant bacteria. It's a bad situation. I wonder, s.i.f., whether we ought to focus on your first paragraph of the O.P., and consider the fact that the human population is too high. How do we fix that?

[Bugmaster]

But to be truly honest, I must say that most of us discussing this have choices that relatively few in the world can imagine... However, if we were all a little lower in "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs"...

Ok, but we're not "a little lower", we're at the top. It's quite possible that many of us who are currently meat-eaters would survive just fine on a purely vegetarian diet.

That's not the topic of the debate, though; the topic, as I understand it, is whether it's ethical for us to eat animals, even when we don't have to, strictly speaking.

My argument is that the decision "plants ok, animals bad" is pretty arbitrary. Why is it ok for us to eat plants, but not animals ? I mean, at least the animals can run away, plants don't even have that option...

[Bugmaster]

Here's a detail that no one seems to have brought up yet:

The majority of the animals we eat today -- cows, chickens, pigs, even fish -- are our creations. Aeons ago, we took some wildlife, and modified the crap out of it through selective breeding. Modern food animals would not have existed if it weren't for us.

As a consequence of this, modern food animals cannot survive in the wild. If we unilaterally decided that meat-eating was wrong, and released all our cows and chickens into the wilderness, the cows and chickens would immediately die due to starvation, exposure, and natural predation. A few of them might survive, and eventually go wild again, but chances are good that entire species of domesticated animals would die off entirely.

I suppose we could all go vegetarian, but keep maintaining the massive populations of domesticated animals in their present state... That sounds like a colossal waste of resources to me, but maybe that's because I'm an evil carnivore :-)

[melikio]

Ok, but we're not "a little lower", we're at the top.

I agree, with your view to a limited degree.

Some of us are only at the "top" for a relatively short time. And I'm not going to rule out that someone with a laptop reading this, might have gathered food (plant or animal) just recently in order to sustain themselves.

Even so, my primary contention is that people are going to gather and EAT what keeps them alive, period.

If that means creating stockpiles of MEAT, VEGETABLES and/or GRAINS to help ensure that "supply" is available, so be it.

Even so, I would hope that NO ONE takes it for granted that we who have the luxury of arguing such a topic as this, certainly have a somewhat privileged view of what may or may not be "ethical".

Most of us are only one man-made or natural disaster away from making this discussion practically meaningless.

-Mel-

[Wyvern]

thank you bugmaster for bringing up the probable extinction of most domesticated species that are used for food. Bringing up another point mankind has not gotten to the point where they don't have to hunt anymore. The reason why has changed is all, in the past hunting was conducted either for food or sport primarily. Now to that list has been added to control populations, in my area in particular deer and geese. Take your pick which is more cruel, shooting an animal or letting them die of starvation over the winter.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Vegetarianism, even if globally accepted as the proper diet, would never work.

Let's face it; meat is cheaper. Workers toiling under American fuedalism for minimum wage cannot possibly sustain themselves eating vegetables... that is, unless they don't mind living in a cardboard box on 5th avenue.

And besides, there is a much better solution to the many environmental problems stemming from livestock rearing than telling everyone to defy their human instincts. Big Business must be regulated. Should our government wake up one day and decide that they actually give a crap about the world, industrial agriculture would be overhauled in favor of a more sustainable system.

Of course, the government (especially under the current administration) will never do this. On it's own. We as consumers can help the cause by simply not buying products from big corporations. Remember the Burger King boycott?

[Bugmaster]

We as consumers can help the cause by simply not buying products from big corporations. Remember the Burger King boycott?

Actually no. Burger King was still around, last time I checked...

Anyway, I am still not convince that vegetarianism is somehow morally superior to a more carnivorous lifestyle (nor am I convinced that it's necessarily healthier, but that's another story).

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Actually no. Burger King was still around, last time I checked...

The Rainforest Action Network conducted a nationwide Burger King boycott in 1987 after BK started importing cheap beef from South American growers.

Within months BK stopped the importations.

Other successful boycotts include the organized demonstrations against canned tuna (save the dolphins) and Icelandic White Fish (save the whales) a few years back.

There is no reason we cannot do the same with industrial agriculture companies who's unsustainable practices litterally destroy entire communities.

The government is not going to do anything about this (naturally), but conscientious consuming can have it's effects. It's possible to beat companies with their own capitalism... much more feasible, at any rate, than convincing everyone to become vegetarians.

[Tuddrussell]

I'm relatively fine with eating meat, but I always choose the kosher and/or organic option when applicable.

Organic/kosher is morally better than regular meat, especially kosher, but always remember that "organic" is a widely used term, that is essentially meaningless, do the research, and find good brands/companies, and try to buy local.

Hunting, in the wild, is a good option for getting meat, and when I'm hunting I always aim for nuisance species, which where I live is the wild boar.

I prefer to hunt without guns, as I feel they are not honourable, bows are fine, swords are better, though they are rather expensive, and require too much risk, and training for most.

Traps are the best, but only if you tailor it with a specific beast in mind, and dismantle it when you are done, and leave nothing behind.

I have a garden, and boost it with organic vegetables that I get direct from a local farm.

Fishing is also fine, but only with a pole, spear, small net, or other options that don't involve large nets, or explosives.

Farm raised fish are good too, but not as good as wild caught.

Gathering is also an option depending on where you live, just make sure you either have a guide, or know what's safe to eat, and always make sure that the plant is not an endangered species.

Keeping your food morally sound is rather difficult, but I believe it is worth it, though I do light a candle, and pray for forgiveness from those that had to die so that I might live, every samhain.

[FinalEnigma]

Vegetarianism, even if globally accepted as the proper diet, would never work.

Let's face it; meat is cheaper. Workers toiling under American fuedalism for minimum wage cannot possibly sustain themselves eating vegetables... that is, unless they don't mind living in a cardboard box on 5th avenue.

No, actually it isn't. my food bill went down when I became a vegetarian.
And even without taking multivitamins and supplements and such, I do quite well nutritionally. I actually get sick less now than when I consumed meat, and have not had any manner of nutritional difficulties - I've been a vegetarian for two years now.

and about the whole 'plants can't even defend themselves, so its worse to eat plants' argument, are you even serious? Animals have a nervous system. they feel pain. they have a brain. They think and have wants - to include not being eaten. And are you arguing that our farm raised animals can run away and/or defend themselves? I'm sorry, no. They can't.

Animals are capable of suffering. the way we raise and kill them causes suffering. I do, in fact, object to causing needless suffering.

as a note - I am not self-destructive. If there was a good reason for me to consume meat, I would, but nobody has ever been able to present me with one.