How is God not responsible for the harm caused by Satan?

[lostguest]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]



Sorry I wasted my time speaking to God haters.
You dont realize that your words are coming from satan..

It hates God and that it is speaking through you.
You dont enen know its tricks.
God have mercy on your soul.

Moderator Warning


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[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 29 by OnceConvinced]

Try looking at why God created satin this way.
If it werent for satan, there we were not aware of bad.
But the purpose God created satan was to prove we can be tempted meaning,
WIth all our good deeds if it can be proven that we can be tempted and that proves we are not really good.
When God was tempted by satan in the desert, he was not tempted because He
had no bad in HIm.

Anyone who thinks they are good people, better take another look.at themselves because satan can bring out the bad in them.
God knew what what He was doing why He created satan.
Never question GOd again.

Not questioning God only leads to robots. And Christians (say at least) God doesn't want robots.

[justforme]

[Replying to post 40 by Elijah John]


I spoke the truth, not cruelty.
These people are degrading God, calling him ignorant and sayyou defend that.
what kind of christians do you call yourselves.
they are in danger of losing their souls and you cannot see that.
No, I want no part of this site.
it is not a christian site.
Look at how they are degrading God and you dont even know scripture.
everything I have said is written.
goodbye.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 40 by Elijah John]


I spoke the truth, not cruelty.
These people are degrading God, calling him ignorant and sayyou defend that.
what kind of christians do you call yourselves.
they are in danger of losing their souls and you cannot see that.
No, I want no part of this site.
it is not a christian site.
Look at how they are degrading God and you dont even know scripture.
everything I have said is written.
goodbye.

It is not the truth they are rejecting so much as your unloving, self righteous and hostile presentation of yourself. <shrug> Why give them that out so they don't have to listen to the truth?

peace, Ted

[OnceConvinced]

...

If God was ignorant then I agree that God cannot be held responsible for Lucifer as he was completely oblivious to the fact that he’d created a monster.

...

You still miss my thought though, GOD created every person ingenuously innocent with an equal ability to accept HIM as their GOD to fulfill HIS purpose of sharing the heaven state with HIM and HIS family church. Evil demonic monsters were self created aeons later by the free will choice of Satan et al.

That is, GOD created no monsters...but HE did allow the self creation of people into monsters by their free will.

What do you actually think I didn't get? If God created something innocent hoping it would stay good, but not knowing if it would, then there is no malevolence involved.

However... if he created these beings knowing that ultimately they might reject him, then he still must take some of the responsibity for how they turn out. After all he created them flawed.

Hmmm, an after thought: why does 'ignorant' sound so different from 'chose not to know?'

Willful ignorance would be worse than just plain ignorance. If I created a robot and gave it freewill, but yet chose not to even consider what that robot would mos likely do with that freewill, then I would look like a very neglectful creator.

As some one who works in the software development industry, we see analysis and design as the most important part of the development process. If we don't do proper analysis and design then we have to take responsibilty for providing a software product that is defective. In your scenario God refuses to do proper analysis and then designs a defective product full of bugs. One that is easily open to viruses infultrating it.

Your God is either incompentent or simply just apathetic.

[OnceConvinced]

As for translations, we do not put our faith in any translation at all but it is the promise of the Holy Spirit to teach us the proper interpretations of any translation. Everyone gets to choose the version they like to put their faith in and thus to prove where their faith lies.

LOL The "holy spirit" is just as bad as the different transations. Most Christians believe they have the holy spirit giving them the proper interpretations, but still none of them can agree with one another and still they all come up with completely different interpretations of the bible. The holy spirit is clearly nothing but a sham. Oh but I guess your holy spirit is the one true holy spirit, isn't it? You're one of the special Christians that's actually got the bible right.

I use such give and take as discussions which I find very helpful. I have never won such a discussion but I've learned a lot. You offer a verse and I suggest how it fits into my theology. I offer a verse and you suggest what you know and think about it...a discussion.

As for it being a useful debating tool, I have to agree while at the same time I find the debate format useless as a tool to discuss spiritual things.

Discussion is good and I do enjoy debating scripture from time to time myself.

I haven't chosen to continue the discussion though about scriptures, as I get now that you believe we are created as spirit before we even get human bodies. I don't really have an issue with that. However you can see in my previous post that I still have an issue with a creator building a defective product and then putting all the blame on the product for the fact it doesn't work as designed.

There is also the issue of defects we are born with and how those affect our lives. If we are born with a mental illness or brain damage, then that could turn us into a monster. You don't think God should take responsibility for that when he created those defects in our physical bodies?

[OnceConvinced]

Ahha! Once someone has no good rational arguments to give, they resort to hateful adhomenum attacks. Nice one, justforme. You are showing how "christlike" you are.

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]

Sorry I wasted my time speaking to God haters.

I do not believe in your God so can't possibly hate what I don't believe in. This is like telling me that I hate Voldomort or Darth Vader.

It is you that paints a picture of a malevolent God, not me. As I do not believe that any God, if he exists, would be that malevolent, I am forced to reject your version of God. How is that hating?

You dont realize that your words are coming from satan..

Satan appears to be imaginary as the malevolent God that you insist exists. Until you can prove that such a horrible creation of God exists, then I'm not going to take your words seriously.

It hates God and that it is speaking through you.
You dont enen know its tricks.

How many years have you been a Christian? I was a dedicated one for over 30 years of my life and learnt all about Satan and how "tricky" he was supposed to be. I also used to believe that the God of the bible was a benevolent and loving God. Then one day I realised that I didn't actually believe in that God anymore nor that devil which he created and as I opened my eyes and started to look at the bible again without the rose-colored glasses I began to see that the God it illustrated was not a very nice God at all.

I did not need any imaginary enemy to help me come to that conclusion. Just a rational and logical mind.

God have mercy on your soul.

If God is real he would know that I have come to my conclusions based on rational and logical reasons. He would know that I geniuinely tried to serve him for over 30 years of my life then came to the heart breaking conclusion that I no longer believed. If he is real, then he knows me better than you do and will know that I am not an evil hateful person.

As for the "soul"... sadly, that to me is simply another Christian fantasy. Something that cannot be shown to be real. Nothing needs to have mercy on something that is imaginary.

I spoke the truth, not cruelty.

What you have here is only a claim of truth. Why should we take you any more seriously than a Muslim preaching the Koran or a Hindu preaching the Baghavad Gita? What you are saying is nothing more than your views on an old holy book. Until you can illustrate that what you have spoken is truth, then you are going to get nowhere on a debating website.

These people are degrading God, calling him ignorant and sayyou defend that.

What I am doing here is challenging your portrayal of God, which illustrates a malevolent or incompetent being, one that I personally am completely unable to believe in. It is YOU degrading him in the way you describe him, not me.

what kind of christians do you call yourselves.

There are many good Christian people here on this site and some of them are moderators who are in their position because they earned that spot by showing themselves to be people of integrity. They are able to debate effectively without having to resort to insults and attacks.

It's people who come here claiming to be Christians, who refuse to follow the rules and who put people down with ad-homenum attacks that make Christians look bad.

they are in danger of losing their souls and you cannot see that.

I would say that if it were possible to lose your "soul" then Christians coming in here who make their God look bad and who make Christians look bad, are the ones in danger of losing their souls. All they are doing is pushing non-believers further way from God by their negative portrayals of their God as well as their anti-social behaviour.

No, I want no part of this site.
it is not a christian site.

This site has now been operating for close to 10 years. If I were still a Christian I'd be saying that God has really blessed this website.

This site is created by a good Christian man who wanted to provide a website that would provide a level playing field for people of all creeds and beliefs, so they could come and discuss religion. He wanted a site where debate could take place and where people could not just make claims without backing those claims up. He has done that.

Still some Christians do not seem to appreciate a level palying field. They would rather be on a site where their opinions are held to be more important than non- Chrstians. Perhaps you would be better off on a purely Christian site where believers can preach without being challenged and where anything that goes against Christian doctrine is shut down immediately and people are banned for dare pointing out the flaws in the bible?

Look at how they are degrading God and you dont even know scripture.

Claims of not knowing scripture is standard with many Christians who come here expecting people to see things their way. I guess in your case we got that one Christian in a million who had it all right. I guess we were just foolish for not realising you as that one true Christian in a million.

everything I have said is written.

Every Christian claims something different about what is written. Why should we accept your take on it as being the most accurate?

Regardless, what is "written" is not the be all and end all. The bible is not considered the authority in this particular sub forum.

goodbye.

Good to see you have the spirit of "longsuffering" in you.

[ttruscott]

...

If God was ignorant then I agree that God cannot be held responsible for Lucifer as he was completely oblivious to the fact that he’d created a monster.

...

You still miss my thought though, GOD created every person ingenuously innocent with an equal ability to accept HIM as their GOD to fulfill HIS purpose of sharing the heaven state with HIM and HIS family church. Evil demonic monsters were self created aeons later by the free will choice of Satan et al.

That is, GOD created no monsters...but HE did allow the self creation of people into monsters by their free will.

What do you actually think I didn't get? If God created something innocent hoping it would stay good, but not knowing if it would, then there is no malevolence involved.

This IS my contention. It is the basis for my theology and understanding of reality - how it can be the way it is in light of GOD's revelation of Himself.

Hmmm, an after thought: why does 'ignorant' sound so different from 'chose not to know?'

Willful ignorance would be worse than just plain ignorance.
...
Your God is either incompentent or simply just apathetic.

What you don't seem to get is that your position on HIS "choosing not to know" being only either wilful or plain ignorance caused by incompetence or apathy is a false view of the necessity of "not knowing" the results of free will decisions. Technically "not knowing" is ignorance but it is not the culpable ignorance of apathy, hostility or incompetence even though it is wilful.

Consider:
1. We have a system of religion which defines reality as including hell. A loving holy GOD and hell. This sets the scene for a number of necessities. IF GOD knew before their creation who would end in hell but created them anyway, HE could not be said to be loving to them. IF HE created them evil, HE could not be said to be holy. Therefore if we start with HIS attributes of being loving and holy, it is a necessity that HE did not know before their creation what they would choose, or HE would never have created them. That HE did create them is proof HE did not know.

2. There is also the idea of the confusion around free will that if GOD knows what we will do, do we have true free will? The debate about this is lengthy and energetic and will not be resolved by the debates which can only offer alternatives. But with the severity of hell being as it is then only a supreme necessity could take HIM into a choice that would generated such a possibility and ensuring our free will would certainly be just such a necessity.

3. The need for our free will is seen to be necessary to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to allow the un-forced, non-coerced choice to love and to be holy since no true love nor true holiness can be forced by any means at all. If there is no free will or no true choice, then love and holiness is impossible.

4. IF HE knows all that which HIS decrees of creation did create as the Bible suggests, (and not all of eternity as the pagans contend), then the necessity our choosing HIM or rejecting HIM by our free will lends itself easily to HIM not decreeing the results of our free will decisions before they are made, thus removing all objections to HIM knowing the fate of the lost yet creating them anyway and HIS knowledge interfering with our free will at the same time.

The only thing that this contention interferes with is the orthodox commitment to the pagan definition of omniscience and the atheistic view that suffering and hell indicate apathy or incompetence. Given the acceptance of the orthodox opinion of HIS omniscience, I'd have to side with the atheistic pov, and did so for many years, but was freed from that delusion to be able to consider a better alternative.

IF this was the process by which we got this Christian defined reality of earth, heaven and hell, it is obvious that HE is neither incompetent nor apathetic but working perfectly to provide a heaven for all those who would choose it by their free will and ensuring that that heaven would be heavenly by arranging for those who reject HIM and HIS promise of heaven, that is, those who self created themselves as eternally evil, to be banished to where they cannot ever contaminate the heavenly experience.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

As for translations, we do not put our faith in any translation at all but it is the promise of the Holy Spirit to teach us the proper interpretations of any translation. Everyone gets to choose the version they like to put their faith in and thus to prove where their faith lies.

LOL The "holy spirit" is just as bad as the different transations. Most Christians believe they have the holy spirit giving them the proper interpretations, but still none of them can agree with one another and still they all come up with completely different interpretations of the bible. The holy spirit is clearly nothing but a sham. Oh but I guess your holy spirit is the one true holy spirit, isn't it? You're one of the special Christians that's actually got the bible right.

imo
Lack of agreement among churches and church people can be easily resolved without considering it all to be a sham: Christian reality includes the fact that we are at war with demons who actively join our churches and work against the elect to keep them in their sins. They do this both by false doctrines and by worldly temptations.

GOD allows this situation as HE needs the demons to show their nature as evil to encourage the sinful elect to repent of their sin and the suffering it causes and to learn to reject the non-elect reprobate as not able to repent so as to abide by HIS assessment that a banishment to hell is necessary.

[personal slur ignored]

There is also the issue of defects we are born with and how those affect our lives. If we are born with a mental illness or brain damage, then that could turn us into a monster. You don't think God should take responsibility for that when he created those defects in our physical bodies?

Excuse me but again you insist that our birth as humans is our creation yet I have clearly repeated often that imo it is not...that we were created perfectly ingenuously innocent in the spirit world sheol and only those who have degraded themselves by choosing to become evil in HIS sight are sent to earth to live our human lives.

The degradation of our human bodies and intellect is a symptom of our choice to sin pre-earth, not a part of our creation. Nor is any specific detail of the 'defects' of body and mind any indication of our status with HIM as elect or non-elect. All things work to the good of them who are called, (the man born blind comes to mind) and nothing can help those who rejected HIM and HIS offer of election eternally .

Your contentions have a great validity if the orthodox position is held but I feel my theology defends GOD against the implications of a blasphemous and wrong orthodoxy, very well. If you think that other accusations against orthodoxy might not be covered by PCEC, I'm glad to offer my opinion and apology but repeating the arguments that have given you so much fulfillment in the past when the answer is adequately given is not as good as a critical examination of the new answer, eh?

Peace, Ted

[OnceConvinced]

imo
Lack of agreement among churches and church people can be easily resolved without considering it all to be a sham: Christian reality includes the fact that we are at war with demons who actively join our churches and work against the elect to keep them in their sins. They do this both by false doctrines and by worldly temptations.

GOD allows this situation as HE needs the demons to show their nature as evil to encourage the sinful elect to repent of their sin and the suffering it causes and to learn to reject the non-elect reprobate as not able to repent so as to abide by HIS assessment that a banishment to hell is necessary.

But it leaves mankind in a no win situation doesn't it? Nobody can prove that they have the correct interpretations. No one can prove they have the holy spirit backing them. It could be that they have been mislead by demons. For all we know even YOU could be mislead by demons. Why should anyone believe that YOU are hearing from the holy spirit while so many others are being lead mislead?

See the delimna?

Sorry, but it all just seems to look like a sham to me with a lot of people not realising they are endorsing a sham.

There is also the issue of defects we are born with and how those affect our lives. If we are born with a mental illness or brain damage, then that could turn us into a monster. You don't think God should take responsibility for that when he created those defects in our physical bodies?

Excuse me but again you insist that our birth as humans is our creation yet I have clearly repeated often that imo it is not...that we were created perfectly ingenuously innocent in the spirit world sheol and only those who have degraded themselves by choosing to become evil in HIS sight are sent to earth to live our human lives.

The degradation of our human bodies and intellect is a symptom of our choice to sin pre-earth, not a part of our creation. Nor is any specific detail of the 'defects' of body and mind any indication of our status with HIM as elect or non-elect. All things work to the good of them who are called, (the man born blind comes to mind) and nothing can help those who rejected HIM and HIS offer of election eternally .

Oh ok, I think I see what you're getting at here. (sometimes it takes a while, I know) You're suggesting that we are born certain ways due to sin pre-earth. Sins we commited while we were still a spiritual being in Shoel. Us bad ones are then sent to earth to be born as humans. So if we are born say a schitzophrenic or blind, then that is because of sins we committed in spirit form?

If this sin has caused the degradation that ultimately occurs when that being is put into a human body, wouldn't that mean that God actually created these spiritual beings with fatal flaws in the first place? So that they became corrupted once they sinned pre-earth. He either deliberately created these fatal flaws or was oblivious to them. Presuming it was not deliberately, then yet again we are left with some real seriously bad analysis and design. If a software developer created a program so badly flawed he would be out of a job. He may even be sued for neglegence.