God vs gods

[Elijah John]

Here on this site, one often hears from non-believers statements and questions doubting the existence of "gods", plural. Not sure why that is. Why not just question God, singular? In Western culture, that would be a more relevant question.

Hardy anyone believes in "gods" anymore. Hindus and Pagans maybe. But most folks here in in the West are either Jewish, Christian of Muslim. Monotheism is predominant.
(Whether or not Trinitarians are actual Monotheists is another debate).

But this leads to an important question. Why philosohically, (excluding reasons of upbringing or cultural conditioning) do SO many in the West believe in God, singular, as opposed to "gods" plural?

What IS the case for Monotheism, as opposed to Polytheism?

(please, this is not intended to become a "prove God or gods exists", thread)

[Divine Insight]

I'm sorry, but I guess the distinction is too fine for most non-Theists.

I don't buy into these kinds of claims. There is no fundamental difference between a theist and non-theist. Many non-theists were theists prior to becoming non-theists, and vice versa. All that exists are humans who draw conclusions based on their own personal experiences and ability to reason or lack thereof.

So for my own absolute Monotheism, I know it is intuitive, and practical, but I was hoping to discover some additional, rational and theoretical underlying principles and reasons for this inclination as well.

What exactly would constitute a rational and theoretical underlying principle?

I have already attempted to address those types of issue.

If religion is indeed a man-made concept and one that evolved because cultures were trying to create a religion to trump the religion of their neighbors, then there are practical and rational reasons why monotheism would evolve.

However, it appears that historically before religions became a warfare between cultures the idea of polytheism was more natural and intuitive to the earliest civilizations. In fact, we actually see many more examples of polytheistic religions thus suggesting that polytheism is the more natural intuitive inclination.

If religion is viewed on a personal level as being a "relationship" between the believer and a God, it is also understandable why a person might favor a monotheistic religion. It's simply far easier for a human mind to imagine having a very deep and private relationship with a single godhead than to imagine having multiple relationships with a whole lot of different Gods who are seen to have different personalities.

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Now all of the above is a very practical consideration. No actual God or Gods need to exist for the above explanations to be true. And so you might classify those views as potentially being non-theistic views since no belief in any actual God or Gods is required to understand those rationale.

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But now if we move to a theistic perspective where we actually ask what might be the true nature of any God or Gods that might exist, then I see no reason to suspect that there should be only one or many gods. Where would there be any rational or theoretical support for one case over another?

As the non-theists rightfully point out, we don't even have any evidence for the existence of a single God, much less evidence for multiple Gods. From the non-theists point of view the question of what rational or theoretical reasons do we have to decide this question is meaningless. How can we even begin to have a rational or theoretical framework for this question when we don't even have a rational or theoretical framework to hypothesize the existence of any God?

Let's think about this:

What are the possible arguments for the existence of any God?

1. The world couldn't exist without a creator.

Fine. Does that imply that there needs to be only one creator? No.

So there's nothing in this argument that could make a distinction between monotheism over polytheism.

2. The world is too complex there must be an intelligent designer.

Does that imply that there needs to be only one designer? No.

2. People claim to experience personal miracles.

Does this imply that there needs to be only one worker of miracles? No.

In fact, many Christians attribute much of the miracles in their lives to "Guardian Angels". And they have no problem at all having an extreme polytheistic view of angels, they have angels for everything.

In fact, from a theist's point of view this could be considered as evidence that even theists recognize that there are many different personalities interacting in their lives. So how is this all that much different from the ancient view of polytheism. All they've done is demote the polytheistic Gods into polytheistic angels. So now instead of Zeus being the "God of Gods", Yahweh has simply become the "God of Angels".

It's the same basic idea. All that has been done is that the polytheistic Gods were demoted to just being angels instead.

It seems to me that intuitively the polytheism is still there in any case.

All that really happened is that Zeus was demoted from being the "God of Gods" to being the "God of Angels" and then renamed as Yahweh.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 38 by Elijah John]

I see. Misunderstanding on my part. Sorry for the derail. Good luck!

No problem, thanks.

[Yahu]

Here on this site, one often hears from non-believers statements and questions doubting the existence of "gods", plural. Not sure why that is. Why not just question God, singular? In Western culture, that would be a more relevant question.

Hardy anyone believes in "gods" anymore. Hindus and Pagans maybe. But most folks here in in the West are either Jewish, Christian of Muslim. Monotheism is predominant.
(Whether or not Trinitarians are actual Monotheists is another debate).

But this leads to an important question. Why philosohically, (excluding reasons of upbringing or cultural conditioning) do SO many in the West believe in God, singular, as opposed to "gods" plural?

What IS the case for Monotheism, as opposed to Polytheism?

(please, this is not intended to become a "prove God or gods exists", thread)

First off you have to define the term 'god'. Lets take the Hebrew word 'El' that is often translated as 'God'. 'El' just means 'the Mighty [One]'. It CAN BE a reference to God or to ANY mighty individual. An angel or a person of authority can also be called 'El'. There are several places in scripture where the 'El' being referenced wasn't a reference to Yahweh but an individual of authority like Noah but gets translated as 'God' in our English translated bibles. An example of this is the city of Bethel which gets translated as 'house of God' when it was the location of 'Noah's house'.

In that case there are 'gods' or mighty individuals. Even angels would be as 'gods' to mortal man.

I define 'God' as the singular creator while recognizing that there are other 'gods' or mighty beings but they are also created beings. Pagans recognize other mighty individuals in the spiritual realm other then the singular creator (or trinity). It can be any spiritual influence that grants them power.

I have been in direct conflict against goddess worship witchcraft. Let me state for the records, their goddess does exist and those that follow her do gain power in their witchcraft. She is a 'goddess' by the definition of being a mighty being BUT she is still a created being. The actual 'goddess' I was in conflict against her high priestess was the spirit of a dead Nephilim. Her father was an angel while her mother was human. She was born AFTER the flood and was alive at Babel as Nimrod's mother and held the title 'queen of heaven/sky' at the tower of Babel. Her father was one of the four angels bound at the Euphrates that is let back out in Revelation. Her high priestess knew exactly who and what she was and still chose to follow her even knowing her goddess was in opposition to Yah, the Creator. Of course the lower level coven members were not allowed that secret information. The high priestess I knew was told directly by her goddess that ALL the bible stories were 100% true but to qualify as her high priestess she had to actively choose to follow evil willingly.

To get around the ambiguity of the term 'god' I tend to use Yah, the short form of the name of Yahweh instead of using a generic term in my own writing.

So I would have to disagree with your statement that no one believes in other 'gods'. I KNOW they exist. We in Christianity just see them as principalities of the enemy realm while the pagans acknowledge the assistance of those beings without recognizing the Christian God.

There is God and gods. It is just a matter of definition. The pagan gods are just as real. Granted, the angelic beings that were worshiped as gods are being held in prison until the tribulation when they are turned back loose. The only active pagan gods are the spirits of their dead offspring or just any powerful spirit.

Now any Christian SHOULD believe in the existences of other gods because we are COMMANDED not to worship them BEFORE Yah. That implies to me that they exist, but to worship them and place them before Yah is forbidden. So is witchcraft conducted in their worship. The ancient paganism is riddled with witchcraft and witchcraft is VERY REAL.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 43 by Yahu]

How do you know there is only one creator god?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Yahu]

I think the ancient Hebrews emerged from a polytheistic belief system where they did believe in the existence of other "gods". But by the time of the Ten Commandments emerged into a monolatry, where one God was focused on for devotion, worship and covenant, while acknowledging the other "gods" existed.

Hence the first commandment, where God identifies Himself by name: "I am YHVH thy God..thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Then with the help of the prophets such as Isaiah, they evolved from polytheism and monoaltry, to a true, strict monotheism, where they understood that there is ONLY one God, and the other so-called lesser gods are either lifeless idols, or lesser spiritual but created beings, El s as you mentioned.

The one, LIVING God, they called YHVH, Yah or Yahweh as you understand Him, and Yehovah as I do. Both names, as you probably know, are variations on the Tetragrammaton, the sacred name of God, rendered mostly as the substitute euphemism of "Lord" in English translations of the Bible.

So I think we are in basic agreement? Or not far apart.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 43 by Yahu]

How do you know there is only one creator god?

Because He says so and He operated directly through me to destroy the coven of a lesser 'goddess'. It was basically a replay of the battle between Elijah and Jezebel and her prophets of Baal in modern times. Those that survived the conflict have all repented (save 2), renounced their witchcraft and goddess and got saved because they SAW the power of Yah.

Note: Of the other 2, I have no knowledge of what happened to them. Both refused to repent but were dishonorably discharged. I have no knowledge of what happened to them after that. Those that ended up in prison either repented or died.

The coven actively tried to kill me as a representative of a rival god but they were the ones that repented or died. All I did was stand on scripture and saw its effect.

The coven's high priestess was the prime candidate to be the next worldwide high priestess of her goddess. She merged many covens together under her authority. She was a high priestess of Ashtoreth but merged in covens that followed Isis and Diana because they followed the same goddess under different names in different cultures.

[Yahu]

[Replying to Yahu]

I think the ancient Hebrews emerged from a polytheistic belief system where they did believe in the existence of other "gods". But by the time of the Ten Commandments emerged into a monolatry, where one God was focused on for devotion, worship and covenant, while acknowledging the other "gods" existed.

Hence the first commandment, where God identifies Himself by name: "I am YHVH thy God..thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Then with the help of the prophets such as Isaiah, they evolved from polytheism and monoaltry, to a true, strict monotheism, where they understood that there is ONLY one God, and the other so-called lesser gods are either lifeless idols, or lesser spiritual but created beings, El s as you mentioned.

The one, LIVING God, they called YHVH, Yah or Yahweh as you understand Him, and Yehovah as I do. Both names, as you probably know, are variations on the Tetragrammaton, the sacred name of God, rendered mostly as the substitute euphemism of "Lord" in English translations of the Bible.

So I think we are in basic agreement? Or not far apart.

It is true that they fell into polytheistic paganism many times but started out monotheistic. Noah was monotheistic as was Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They did add other Egyptian gods during their captivity in Egypt as well as mixing in the Canaanite polytheism at times. Yah destroyed those that followed other gods during the 40 years of wandering. Of course the prophets were sent when they got off course again and judgement fell on them when they failed to heed the warnings of the prophets.

So yes polytheist did corrupt Judaism many times. There are still doctrines out of that paganism that still corrupt even Christianity today. The ancient paganism and doctrines from it is one of my areas of expertise. I spent years studying what scripture had to say about those ancient pagan deities after confronting a modern day high priestess of Ashtoreth who wielded great power.

The enemy corrupts the true religion then Yah brings judgement and purges all but the faithful remnant. It has occurred many times over the course of history starting with the flood of Noah.

To say they started out polytheistic is error IMO. The truth is reveal then corrupted by the enemy over and over again.

Now part of the polytheism was ancestor reverence that became worship. For example Noah was worshiped as a great progenitor by many peoples. Noah is often called 'El' in scripture but many later confused that with God. The worship of Asherah as the consort of El is an example. Asherah was a Canaanite reference for the wife of Noah. One of her primary titles that confuse the scholars is 'she who treads upon the sea' while she is considered 'mother earth' with no connection to the sea. The epitaph is just a reference to her surviving the flood on the ark. Later El got confused with Yahweh and Asherah became the consort of Yahweh. The Bull that the northern kingdom set up as an alternate place of worship, was the animal symbol of Noah from the book of Enoch. Yahweh was thought to ride the back of the bull. Now the bull was also the symbol of the pagan father of the gods, Hadad, the thunderer. He equates to Zeus in the Greek pantheon. Baal (Lord) worship was also confused with Yahweh worship many times.

Confusion is one of the primary tactics of the enemy. They like to confuse who is really god and trick people to worship them as god.

Oh, and yes I am aware of the origins of the name. Scripture specifically calls Him by the name Yah in psalms. Most of the prophets have 'yah' in their name in the Hebrew like 'EliYahu' (Elijah), Jeremi-yah, Isa-yah. The 'jah' or 'iah' endings on prophets names is from having 'yah' in their name in the Hebrew. For example Elijah means 'mighty is he in Yah' others translate it as 'Yah is God' because they translate 'El' as god instead of as 'mighty'.

Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH (or Yah in the Hebrew), and rejoice before him.

Halelujah is 'praise Yah' in Hebrew. So anyone that says Halelujah is using the name Yah without even realizing it.

Now Jehovah is a germanized corruption of YHVH with invalid vowel points. The german influences replaced the 'Y' with 'J'. Personally I prefer the Hebrew form Yahuvah but most people are not familiar with it and use Yahweh.

Even my handle 'Yahu' is the Hebrew form of Jehu, the man that destroyed queen Jezebel. His name means 'He is Yah' a reference to He (God) is Yah.

[Zzyzx]

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The actual 'goddess' I was in conflict against her high priestess was the spirit of a dead Nephilim. Her father was an angel while her mother was human. She was born AFTER the flood and was alive at Babel as Nimrod's mother and held the title 'queen of heaven/sky' at the tower of Babel. Her father was one of the four angels bound at the Euphrates that is let back out in Revelation. Her high priestess knew exactly who and what she was and still chose to follow her even knowing her goddess was in opposition to Yah, the Creator. Of course the lower level coven members were not allowed that secret information. The high priestess I knew was told directly by her goddess that ALL the bible stories were 100% true but to qualify as her high priestess she had to actively choose to follow evil willingly.

Can ANY of this be shown / verified to be truthful and accurate (more than imagination / fiction / fantasy)?

[Yahu]

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The actual 'goddess' I was in conflict against her high priestess was the spirit of a dead Nephilim. Her father was an angel while her mother was human. She was born AFTER the flood and was alive at Babel as Nimrod's mother and held the title 'queen of heaven/sky' at the tower of Babel. Her father was one of the four angels bound at the Euphrates that is let back out in Revelation. Her high priestess knew exactly who and what she was and still chose to follow her even knowing her goddess was in opposition to Yah, the Creator. Of course the lower level coven members were not allowed that secret information. The high priestess I knew was told directly by her goddess that ALL the bible stories were 100% true but to qualify as her high priestess she had to actively choose to follow evil willingly.

Can ANY of this be shown / verified to be truthful and accurate (more than imagination / fiction / fantasy)?

One of the consequences of that covens activities was the passing of the first anti-stalking laws in California. My wife was involved with the legislation because of the men involved were stalking her.

Due to a law suite against a pet drug manufacturer that was used as a date rape drug by the coven, that drug now has a blue dye in it to prevent its use as a date rape drug.

The Gold's gym the men gathered at was closed by law suites and they are forbidden from opening any branch of the gym in Riverside county California ever again.

There was also a plaque put up about the conflict and a thank you to me on March AFB. When the base down graded to an ARB the plaque was moved over to March national cemetery somewhere to preserve it.

There were newspaper articles from covering the trials of the criminal activities of the coven but you would have to research them on microfilm in the Riverside Cal Library.

Of course you could always try to track down that high priestess herself. She repented in prison and went back to being Catholic. I don't know what happened to her after she was run out of her home town after she got out of prison. I do know she admitted much of it to her Catholic priest. Her priest had her read Eze 16 because it was nearly an exact parallel to what happened to her and the prophecies in that passage were fulfilled nearly exactly.

Another person that was majorly involved in getting the coven fully prosecuted was the then Air Force Chief of Staff, Gen Larry Welch. It was a major scandal on an AFB back in 88. The last I heard, he works in the office of the SecDef. Many of the coven members went to prison on charges of treason because one of the things they did was sabotage a military aircraft in an attempt to get at my wife. The scandal happened on a military base. So there are court-marshal transcripts out there somewhere as well as trail transcripts for those convicted in state and federal courts. There are also FBI records. Because treason was involved the FBI send in undercover agents to gather evidence and infiltrated the coven.

Now the recording I made of the high priestess admitting much of what she said was used in her trial. I turned it over as evidence because she also admitted to all of the coven's criminal activities. It was played during the sentencing portion of her trial. They couldn't use it directly in the trial because I didn't tell her I was recording the conversation. The last I heard, that tape was in the Pentagon.

As to proving what she admitted to me. Of course I can't prove she wasn't lying to another. It takes the Holy Spirit to provide a truth sense and recognize a lying spirit operating through that individual. If you don't have the gift of discernment of spirits, that can never be proven to another.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 49 by Yahu]

Do you acknowledge that you cannot provide substantiation and verification to support the truth and accuracy of what you say (or shall we leave that for readers' to decide)?

If you can verify what you say, kindly do so citing credible sources by verbatim quote with proper reference. Vague references to newspaper articles are inadequate.

In debate such unverified testimonials / personal stories are generally regarded as worthless or close.