Assuming the myth of the flood as recorded in Genesis is accurate history, it is the greatest single evil act recorded in the history of man. It also is evidence the alleged god who perpetrated this evil makes mistakes, contradicts himself, and is capricious.
Consider that shortly after pronouncing all of his creation "good" he repents and calls the whole thing evil and decides to destroy all of it; man and all the other animals [except, presumably, marine life]. Then he changes his mind again and decides He'll just wipe out everything and everyone except a single family to represent each species.
Why he saved the death stalker scorpion, mosquitoes, the box jellyfish, the black widow spider, the poison dart frog, blue ring octopus, and Clostridium Botulinum is beyond me, except that it puts the lie to the idea he was trying to get rid of evil.
It's obvious the story of the flood is pure mythology, but even then, what is its purpose? To show man how evil and corrupt he'd become? The God of this myth certainly does not set a good example.
The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
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ttruscott
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #41IF you wanted to prove your point (whatever it might be) with the destruction of every sinner in the world at the same time, how better more efficiently would you do it? How do you keep Noah et al safe if you blast the whole earth with fire from heaven and volcanoes etc? Shaking the whole earth by earthquakes and comet strikes also do not solve the difficulty of saving the Ark.Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Danmark]
As you can see, what is or isn't evil is debatable. Best to rephrase the question to use objective terms: The Flood Myth - The less than perfectly efficient. I would like to see Christians argue how flooding the Earth is the most efficient way of dispensing justice to sinners.
Water is more efficient than an all consuming fire if you want to save someone from your destruction but at the end when total destruction is the goal, HE will use fire, eh?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #42Christian logic is clear: the suffering and death caused by a righteous judge against evil is not evil. Nor is it evil in any jurisdiction on earth I can think of. Only the unjustified killing of those not convicted of a capital crime is evil.Danmark wrote:
...
In fact, that is the very point of this debate; that killing everyone, babies, the unborn fetuses, three year old children, EVERYone is evil. If the act of killing every living creature on the Earth by a sentient being is not evil, what is?
I'll issue the challenge again: If anyone but this mythical God killed everyone, who would contend the act was not evil?
...
An emotional horror at suffering and death is NOT a logical proof that suffering and death are evil.
And, since it is your contention they are innocent and therefore their deaths are evil then it is your contention to prove.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #43The whole and complete purpose for the creation of the earth was for it to be a prison for all sinners so they are kept away from polite society. This prison also has a rehab centre in it to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction / enslavement to sin so they can be trained to use their newly reborn free will to only choose righteousness ...and then they are heaven ready. Everything HE does in the Bible is to this end, the redemption of HIS sinful elect.PghPanther wrote: ...
Why???
Why wouldn't this all powerful God of the universe just selectively open up the earth and take away whoever he wanted to and not bother with forcing people to kill other people .....
...
And to forestall accusations, only those who chose to allow themselves to be rehabilitated by GOD if they should ever become addicted to sin CAN be so rehabed. Those who rejected the promise of rehabilitation thinking HE was a false god and his promises mere manipulations and lies will have their free will decisions respected and they will not be rehabed.
Within this prison environment there are many judgements and punishments and lessons for each of us, all individually tailored to our special and unique needs that were created by our own personal reasons for our personal free will decision that landed us in this mess.
Every tittle and jot in the Bible has a meaning for someone at some time and for all of us most of the time but when the word is ignored in our rehabilitation, bad things happen with serious consequences.
Add in the fact that Christian doctrine teaches that we must live by faith (an unproven hope) and not proof, then your suggestion of a continuous miraculous judgement upon all sinners is impossible as it ends the possibility of faith ever growing.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Post #44
Aye, if you wrote, "But for those that take this passage literally there is no choice FROM THE POV OF THE WORLDLY, but to conclude that god was the most evil monster the Earth has ever known." I would agree but from my pov provided by my spiritual experiences (that are proof to me if not to anyone else in the anti-spiritual world), this does not add up to the only conclusion by a long shot.Danmark wrote:
...
But for those that take this passage literally there is no choice but to conclude that god was the most evil monster the Earth has ever known.
...
Certainly, I will concede that the evil may only be evil from the point of view of humanity. But that is also my point.
...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #45[Replying to post 10 by Ancient Paths]
(Please note, that you should answer these questions with an open mind. Try to understand the importance of each question individually and try not to overstep or link your answers unnecessarily to the other questions, even though they are leading queries and part of a larger whole. Your individual responses should lead you to a logical end goal. I deliver to you, up front with no falsities or deceit, that I ask these questions to hopefully offer up an alternative view point.)
1) Do you believe the Torah was written around/between the 16th century and the 12th century BCE? (This would make the books of the Old Testament are over 3,200 to 3,615 years old)
2) Do you believe the gospels were written around/between 30 to 100 CE? (This would make the entire compiled book of the bible less than 1,980 years old)
3) Do you believe the world to be thousands of years old, or millions/billions of years old? (I hope it is safe to assume that from some of your statements, you are or have previously been inducted in the ideals of creationism and believe one of two world views, the world is older than the bible says as it is an allegory rather than an exact recording of the time line of events or that it is in fact an accurate account of events making the world about 6,000 years old.)
4) Do you believe that the "correct" concept of "evil" was first defined and delivered to the human race in the biblical texts? (Try to answer this as a human in the modern 21st century, not as a human trying to perceive what a God did about 6,000 to 15,000 years ago to a select few humans. An affirmation to this idea would propose that you believe your concept of evil did not exist for the entire world to study and understand until, at the earliest, around the 16th century CE when European explorations brought the biblical teachings to the known world. We're discussing biblical concepts of evil, not humanistic morals or concepts of evil as the entire continent of North and South America had no idea that public nudity was considered a Christian-Judeo wickedness before the 15th century CE. The bible still has not reached or have only recently reached solitary or newly discovered cultures such as the Sentinelese people or the Lacandon Mayans. To state that humans knew the laws of the bible and its concepts of evil before the book's conception would make the God of the bible and his book obsolete as we are innately gifted with his knowledge of evil and would have no need for a book to tell us that we should clothe ourselves or to not be envious of our neighbors. Adam and Eve did not know they were naked until eating of the tree in the garden, and yet an entire continent had no idea this was evil until the arrival of the Europeans. This means that we need a book to tell us what your concept of evil is, and that book has only been available to save souls or correct the wrong doings of the entire world for less than 800 years. Meaning that 5,200 years worth of human beings were purposefully kept ignorant to the evils of their own ways until this book's completion.)
5) Do you believe that it is an evil act to punish someone by death for doing something they have no idea is wrong/against a previously unwritten/unread law? (Try to imagine that this question is what it is; a question for you as a human, not geared for the biblical God most Christian-Judeo believers hold above reproach. If you do not agree that this is an evil act for a human to commit, due to some implication of or specification from a scripture, then you affirm that your belief of evil is subjective to the laws of one book and not based upon an objective view of reality that just so happens to agree with that book. The act of ending a life for crimes the defendant could not comprehend to be evil because it had always been their way, and their father's way and their father's father's way, is no way to right the wrong. It would be more beneficial to society to have the defendant reformed and rehabilitated, now knowing the wrong they've done, to begin to make amends. Thinking in the opposite manner would not constitute having an open mind, and it would only perpetuate the idea that a debate to change your mind is an impossible one because you refuse to take your fingers out of your ears while screaming "nah nah nah". I hope this is not the case and that you can be reasoned with, if so please continue reading.)
In conclusion...
If you believe in a God that punishes humans for being "evil" or "wicked" or "sinners against his laws" by death, and without them having ever read these laws, given no chance to understand why it is wrong what they are doing, and how to appease their God, then you my friend should re-evaluate your conception of evil. Because punishments by death with no prior warnings is something even Adolf Hitler's 3rd Reich was unable to do. They at least gave the Jews a chance to leave the country before they slaughtered them in wholesale. Unlike the God of the great Flood story. The God of the bible is entirely examinable because he is written down. And what was written down can be studied and understood. And what can be understood is that the laws weren't always around and yet man didn't go extinct. But if the God of the bible had any say in the matter, it was that man did nearly go extinct, all because they knew not what they did. That is the same as telling a Jewish child that that child must be exterminated because of what their parents do and who they are, even though that child will never understand the history of the German financial and political issues of World War I and she must die because she too is wicked in the eyes of the Fuhrer. Sounds pretty evil to me. What are your thoughts on my views?
Isaiah 45:7
, " ; "", " -".
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Ancient Path, please humor me on the following:Ancient Paths wrote:Danmark wrote:
...it is the greatest single evil act recorded in the history of man.
Evil, perhaps, in your definition of the word, but it sounds like your definition of evil is based on pop culture and not on biblical exegesis.
Danmark wrote:
It also is evidence the alleged god who perpetrated this evil makes mistakes, contradicts himself, and is capricious.
"the god who perpetrated this evil" is again an example of assuming congruence between your understanding of evil and how evil is understood biblically.
(Please note, that you should answer these questions with an open mind. Try to understand the importance of each question individually and try not to overstep or link your answers unnecessarily to the other questions, even though they are leading queries and part of a larger whole. Your individual responses should lead you to a logical end goal. I deliver to you, up front with no falsities or deceit, that I ask these questions to hopefully offer up an alternative view point.)
1) Do you believe the Torah was written around/between the 16th century and the 12th century BCE? (This would make the books of the Old Testament are over 3,200 to 3,615 years old)
2) Do you believe the gospels were written around/between 30 to 100 CE? (This would make the entire compiled book of the bible less than 1,980 years old)
3) Do you believe the world to be thousands of years old, or millions/billions of years old? (I hope it is safe to assume that from some of your statements, you are or have previously been inducted in the ideals of creationism and believe one of two world views, the world is older than the bible says as it is an allegory rather than an exact recording of the time line of events or that it is in fact an accurate account of events making the world about 6,000 years old.)
4) Do you believe that the "correct" concept of "evil" was first defined and delivered to the human race in the biblical texts? (Try to answer this as a human in the modern 21st century, not as a human trying to perceive what a God did about 6,000 to 15,000 years ago to a select few humans. An affirmation to this idea would propose that you believe your concept of evil did not exist for the entire world to study and understand until, at the earliest, around the 16th century CE when European explorations brought the biblical teachings to the known world. We're discussing biblical concepts of evil, not humanistic morals or concepts of evil as the entire continent of North and South America had no idea that public nudity was considered a Christian-Judeo wickedness before the 15th century CE. The bible still has not reached or have only recently reached solitary or newly discovered cultures such as the Sentinelese people or the Lacandon Mayans. To state that humans knew the laws of the bible and its concepts of evil before the book's conception would make the God of the bible and his book obsolete as we are innately gifted with his knowledge of evil and would have no need for a book to tell us that we should clothe ourselves or to not be envious of our neighbors. Adam and Eve did not know they were naked until eating of the tree in the garden, and yet an entire continent had no idea this was evil until the arrival of the Europeans. This means that we need a book to tell us what your concept of evil is, and that book has only been available to save souls or correct the wrong doings of the entire world for less than 800 years. Meaning that 5,200 years worth of human beings were purposefully kept ignorant to the evils of their own ways until this book's completion.)
5) Do you believe that it is an evil act to punish someone by death for doing something they have no idea is wrong/against a previously unwritten/unread law? (Try to imagine that this question is what it is; a question for you as a human, not geared for the biblical God most Christian-Judeo believers hold above reproach. If you do not agree that this is an evil act for a human to commit, due to some implication of or specification from a scripture, then you affirm that your belief of evil is subjective to the laws of one book and not based upon an objective view of reality that just so happens to agree with that book. The act of ending a life for crimes the defendant could not comprehend to be evil because it had always been their way, and their father's way and their father's father's way, is no way to right the wrong. It would be more beneficial to society to have the defendant reformed and rehabilitated, now knowing the wrong they've done, to begin to make amends. Thinking in the opposite manner would not constitute having an open mind, and it would only perpetuate the idea that a debate to change your mind is an impossible one because you refuse to take your fingers out of your ears while screaming "nah nah nah". I hope this is not the case and that you can be reasoned with, if so please continue reading.)
In conclusion...
If you believe in a God that punishes humans for being "evil" or "wicked" or "sinners against his laws" by death, and without them having ever read these laws, given no chance to understand why it is wrong what they are doing, and how to appease their God, then you my friend should re-evaluate your conception of evil. Because punishments by death with no prior warnings is something even Adolf Hitler's 3rd Reich was unable to do. They at least gave the Jews a chance to leave the country before they slaughtered them in wholesale. Unlike the God of the great Flood story. The God of the bible is entirely examinable because he is written down. And what was written down can be studied and understood. And what can be understood is that the laws weren't always around and yet man didn't go extinct. But if the God of the bible had any say in the matter, it was that man did nearly go extinct, all because they knew not what they did. That is the same as telling a Jewish child that that child must be exterminated because of what their parents do and who they are, even though that child will never understand the history of the German financial and political issues of World War I and she must die because she too is wicked in the eyes of the Fuhrer. Sounds pretty evil to me. What are your thoughts on my views?
Isaiah 45:7
, " ; "", " -".
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
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Post #46
[Replying to post 44 by ttruscott]
FREE WILL
A) I place cameras in your room. You sit on your bed and looking around decide to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God. I then, using the camera footage, write down exactly what you did on paper and come into the room to hand you the finished copy. You read it and think "Wow, I have free will."
B) I place cameras in your room. I write down exactly what I want you to do on paper and come into the room to hand you the finished copy. You read it and think "Wow, I have free will." You sit on your bed and looking around decide do as I have written; to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God.
C) I place cameras in your room. I write down exactly what I want you to do on paper but you never see the finished copy. You think "Wow, I have free will." You sit on your bed and looking around decide do as I have written but with no knowledge of what I've planned for you to do; to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God.
In what instance do you have "free will"? In option A you do as you see fit, and then I have written what you've done. In option B you do as you see fit, but it is what I have commanded you to do. In option C you do as you think you are doing without command but low and behold I have already foreseen that you will lay down and have written it down before you chose to do it. Is this free will? Because option C is the one the bible proposes you are doing. As God does indeed know everything before hand, including whether you're going to Heaven or Hell before You're ever even born.
(Sites 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 139:16; Romans 9:10-23; 8:29; Ephesians 1:4; ~Proverbs 5:21; 15:3)
So even though you say all spirits have free will, the fact is our decisions have been predestined for us since before there was even a single star in the heavens. (According to your book)
GOD'S HOLINESS
You profess that GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil or evil people for any reason. And that All evil is creature-created by their true free will...
Isaiah 45:7 says your God says that he himself created evil. So he does create evil. And if his plan didn't have the first human sin (to disobey him in the garden) then we'd all be trillions of naked humans without sin or death, living forever. So he does create evil AND his plan needed evil to be put into motion, not to mention every evil act he has committed that Christians are too blind or too weak to judge him for.
Just wanted to clarify that for you Scott...Rusco...ttruscott... I hope that inspires you to come up with a different Signature. Human Bless.
I would like to pose a thought experiment on your quote about "free will".ttruscott wrote: in the signature...
_________________
I Champion:
GODs holiness:
- GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil or evil people for any reason.
- All evil is creature-created by their true free will.
Our Free will:
- All spirits created in the image of GOD were created with the ability to make true free will decisions.
- All spirits had an equal ability to choose GOD or reject HIM.
FREE WILL
A) I place cameras in your room. You sit on your bed and looking around decide to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God. I then, using the camera footage, write down exactly what you did on paper and come into the room to hand you the finished copy. You read it and think "Wow, I have free will."
B) I place cameras in your room. I write down exactly what I want you to do on paper and come into the room to hand you the finished copy. You read it and think "Wow, I have free will." You sit on your bed and looking around decide do as I have written; to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God.
C) I place cameras in your room. I write down exactly what I want you to do on paper but you never see the finished copy. You think "Wow, I have free will." You sit on your bed and looking around decide do as I have written but with no knowledge of what I've planned for you to do; to lay back in your bed, head on your pillow and sing a song to God.
In what instance do you have "free will"? In option A you do as you see fit, and then I have written what you've done. In option B you do as you see fit, but it is what I have commanded you to do. In option C you do as you think you are doing without command but low and behold I have already foreseen that you will lay down and have written it down before you chose to do it. Is this free will? Because option C is the one the bible proposes you are doing. As God does indeed know everything before hand, including whether you're going to Heaven or Hell before You're ever even born.
(Sites 1 John 3:20; Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 139:16; Romans 9:10-23; 8:29; Ephesians 1:4; ~Proverbs 5:21; 15:3)
So even though you say all spirits have free will, the fact is our decisions have been predestined for us since before there was even a single star in the heavens. (According to your book)
GOD'S HOLINESS
You profess that GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil or evil people for any reason. And that All evil is creature-created by their true free will...
Isaiah 45:7 says your God says that he himself created evil. So he does create evil. And if his plan didn't have the first human sin (to disobey him in the garden) then we'd all be trillions of naked humans without sin or death, living forever. So he does create evil AND his plan needed evil to be put into motion, not to mention every evil act he has committed that Christians are too blind or too weak to judge him for.
Just wanted to clarify that for you Scott...Rusco...ttruscott... I hope that inspires you to come up with a different Signature. Human Bless.
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ttruscott
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #47evil: - Strong's H7451 - ra -Buy Oz Moses wrote:
...
Isaiah 45:7
, " ; "", " -".
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Pronunciation: rah
adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
So, though it can refer to doing ethical moral evil it also can be used to refer to distress, misery, injury, calamitious evil, and adversity so why would you think you can convince a believer that GOD, the source of all good with no wickedness in HIM, creates moral evil based upon this verse? How you interpret ra is up to you but don't expect many beleivers to accept it means HE creates moral evil.
Would you be interested in the more than two dozen verses I've collected that affirm HE does not and will never create evil?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
Danmark
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #48Every single definition you've listed clearly applies to a being that would indiscriminately kill every man, woman, and child of every species on Earth including man.ttruscott wrote:evil: - Strong's H7451 - ra -Buy Oz Moses wrote:
...
Isaiah 45:7
, " ; "", " -".
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Pronunciation: rah
adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
So, though it can refer to doing ethical moral evil it also can be used to refer to distress, misery, injury, calamitious evil, and adversity so why would you think you can convince a believer that GOD, the source of all good with no wickedness in HIM, creates moral evil based upon this verse?
That he is "the source of all good with no wickedness in HIM," appears to be preposterous given his actions. You can't 'define' this God as good and without wickedness. His actions speak much louder than any words, yours or 'his.'
The question of whether you can "convince a believer" in the goodness of this God is irrelevant. That 'true believers' can't be convinced of anything contrary to their beliefs, no matter how strong the facts, is the very problem. Nothing can convince them. When the fact this 'God' decides to destroy every living thing, is not sufficient to convince people he is evil, nothing will. When his command that Abraham kill his son to please God does not convince people this God is evil, what would? When this God's command that infants to be dashed against the rocks so one tribe can take the land of another does not convince one 'he' is evil, what would be convincing?
I submit that NOTHING, no evidence, no fact, nothing at all can convince the 'true believer' of anything at all, given the fact this record of evil is insufficient to do the job.
Like Goliath challenging the Israelites, I repeat my challenge:
WHO, aside from your favorite god, could commit these acts and not be considered evil?
Last edited by Danmark on Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil
Post #49[Replying to post 47 by ttruscott]
Notice how you bring out the meaning of the hebrew word for evil that they use in that scripture, and although It means "evil", and says repeatedly "Injury" "Misery" "Calamity" you say these words do not express evil acts or evil results? Because you have 72 scriptures that say your God is great, THAT...that is the reason you believe he's good? What about his actions? Charles Manson said he was a savior, and his followers called him a good man...so do we throw logic to the wayside because you're feelings about what you've held onto in the terms of belief for many years has been questioned? Or is Charles Manson an evil individual based solely on his actions and commands?
Back to the word Evil. Do you honestly believe that anyone who did not know your God's commands should be drowned as punishment? And that this is something a good person does to his children that he did not lead in the right direction until the year 30 CE? You are a believer. I am a believer that you are not evil. Would you kill billions of humans if you dropped the ball on letting them know how they are to be and act as a race/species? The word evil is evil. And no, even Calamity which is the apologetic way out of that scripture, makes it any less to the point. Your God creates good...and he creates evil...The scripture and the chapter is about subduing nations. Killing the first born of every slave who did him no wrong in Egypt...every child...every Childless mother crying...wailing....why? What did they do, besides be placed where Your God had put them upon birth and gave them no out, no freedom...and yet they must suffer as well? What did the first born of the slaves do to deserve all of that pain and misery, boils and famine and death? For what? For good? Calamity is just as evil as evil, Rusco...ttruscott, Scott...
Rusco, I don't want you to bow down to me, and I don't want you say I am right and you are wrong. I am not trying to get a win here. In all honesty there is no way to win. But...if you just back off of the "defensive mode" button...you'll calm down...and when you're no longer coming in the defense of your God, which quite frankly I can't imagine he would need your help, he supposed to be a God...but when you actually read these words with understanding you're going to wake up. Not entirely at first, it'll be small. You'll be squinting your eyes at certain verses and the meaning of certain scriptures. And then you'll re read your bible with an unbiased opinion...
And that's when the beauty of it hits you...the children...all of those children...lost, gone, smashed away as if they meant nothing to the God of the Christian bible. The people of Amelech, the Egyptian slaves, all of the world save for Noah. The senseless killing and suffering of it all. And for what? Some greater good?
Just answer me this question...if you were a God...No...if you were a parent...and your child had become a mess of a child, destroying toys, cursing up a storm, kicking and biting and screaming against your wishes...do you draw up a bath...and drown that child...hoping...that your last remaining child who is not being drowned can be a better example? What is Calamity but something that when brought down by another human onto their fellow mankind, is considered evil...pure and utter evil...but when it's brought down by a God...it's somehow looked over...
(Side note: you didn't talk about free will. I'm also interested to know your take on it.)
Notice how you bring out the meaning of the hebrew word for evil that they use in that scripture, and although It means "evil", and says repeatedly "Injury" "Misery" "Calamity" you say these words do not express evil acts or evil results? Because you have 72 scriptures that say your God is great, THAT...that is the reason you believe he's good? What about his actions? Charles Manson said he was a savior, and his followers called him a good man...so do we throw logic to the wayside because you're feelings about what you've held onto in the terms of belief for many years has been questioned? Or is Charles Manson an evil individual based solely on his actions and commands?
Back to the word Evil. Do you honestly believe that anyone who did not know your God's commands should be drowned as punishment? And that this is something a good person does to his children that he did not lead in the right direction until the year 30 CE? You are a believer. I am a believer that you are not evil. Would you kill billions of humans if you dropped the ball on letting them know how they are to be and act as a race/species? The word evil is evil. And no, even Calamity which is the apologetic way out of that scripture, makes it any less to the point. Your God creates good...and he creates evil...The scripture and the chapter is about subduing nations. Killing the first born of every slave who did him no wrong in Egypt...every child...every Childless mother crying...wailing....why? What did they do, besides be placed where Your God had put them upon birth and gave them no out, no freedom...and yet they must suffer as well? What did the first born of the slaves do to deserve all of that pain and misery, boils and famine and death? For what? For good? Calamity is just as evil as evil, Rusco...ttruscott, Scott...
Rusco, I don't want you to bow down to me, and I don't want you say I am right and you are wrong. I am not trying to get a win here. In all honesty there is no way to win. But...if you just back off of the "defensive mode" button...you'll calm down...and when you're no longer coming in the defense of your God, which quite frankly I can't imagine he would need your help, he supposed to be a God...but when you actually read these words with understanding you're going to wake up. Not entirely at first, it'll be small. You'll be squinting your eyes at certain verses and the meaning of certain scriptures. And then you'll re read your bible with an unbiased opinion...
And that's when the beauty of it hits you...the children...all of those children...lost, gone, smashed away as if they meant nothing to the God of the Christian bible. The people of Amelech, the Egyptian slaves, all of the world save for Noah. The senseless killing and suffering of it all. And for what? Some greater good?
Just answer me this question...if you were a God...No...if you were a parent...and your child had become a mess of a child, destroying toys, cursing up a storm, kicking and biting and screaming against your wishes...do you draw up a bath...and drown that child...hoping...that your last remaining child who is not being drowned can be a better example? What is Calamity but something that when brought down by another human onto their fellow mankind, is considered evil...pure and utter evil...but when it's brought down by a God...it's somehow looked over...
(Side note: you didn't talk about free will. I'm also interested to know your take on it.)
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ttruscott
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Post #50
This describes what I call the illusion of free will here on earth. You don't know of course how many times I've been over this as you are new so I commend you for a polite approach to instruct me rather than the so often implied "Ah ha you fool you, you can't even see the hole in your own theory. How dumb is that?" Expect a donation for politeness.Buy Oz Moses wrote:
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In option C you do as you think you are doing without command but low and behold I have already foreseen that you will lay down and have written it down before you chose to do it. Is this free will? Because option C is the one the bible proposes you are doing. As God does indeed know everything before hand, including whether you're going to Heaven or Hell before You're ever even born.
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While I reject the pagan Greek definition of GOD's omniscience (HE know all things from eternity past to eternity future by HIS nature) as leading inevitably to blasphemy, I accept that GOD indeed knows everything I will do because in fact HE has determined it to ensure that I will be redeemed and brought to holiness the very best way. So I obviously do not accept that we have free will here on earth. That is not the full extent of my theology by along shot but a mere start.
As I just said. I left this in to address the phrase "(According to your book)" as curious since I do not have a book of theology. I am the author of a study of Canadian Law and Self Defence that was unique for 20 some years in Canada but has since been updated and surpassed by others, sigh...but no book on theology. Will you please explain what you mean by this?Buy Oz Moses wrote: So even though you say all spirits have free will, the fact is our decisions have been predestined for us since before there was even a single star in the heavens. (According to your book)
NO it does not. That is your erroneous interpretation of the words imCo. See my post previous to this for the full explanation.
My name is Ted Truscott and I often sign as Ted which you may call me if you feel so moved to use my name. Since Ted is not always on my post but my sign in name is as ttruscott, I will also accept that. I will not accept people fooling with other's names pretending carelessness to get in a dig.Buy Oz Moses wrote:Just wanted to clarify that for you Scott...Rusco...ttruscott... I hope that inspires you to come up with a different Signature. Human Bless.
And since you have added nothing to the work I did 40 years ago on this verse, my sig will remain until something better is presented. Donation on its way...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
