Corruption in the Clergy

[Jagella]

Scandals abound in Christianity and always have. From sex and money scandals among Pentecostal TV preachers, to child abuse allegations against the Watchtower, to the Vatican pedophile-priest cover-up, it's all over. Corruption in the clergy demonstrates that the men who criticize unbelievers for loving sin should know from personal experience what it's like to enjoy such sins.

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

I can understand some people being scammed by the Christian clergy for a while like I was, but once you know you're being scammed, then the prudent thing to do is to get out like I did. Leave religion and all its corruption and all its lies behind and never return like The dog turns back to its own vomit, or "The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 40 by JehovahsWitness]

So? So what?!

No organization can be completely free of this vile crime because most abuse of this kind is interfamilial.

Unlike an "apostate" I can freely criticize the Watchtower without fear of being shunned. In fact, I'd rather be shunned than indoctrinated any day. I'm too good a man to support any organization that's headed by people who try to cover up child abuse. It's wrong for the Catholics to do that, and it's wrong for the Jehovah's Witnesses to do that.

But you may be right that child abuse is not more prevalent among Jehovah's Witnesses. It's the Watchtower's covering it up that's the problem.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 32 by tam]

I do not listen to the 'clergy' myself. Many - if not most - of them are not listening to Christ, but are instead just following the doctrines of their religions. I listen to Christ. I mean, who else is going to be able to teach us the truth of His Father, than the One who is the Word and Image of God?

I'd recommend you not be too quick to trust the clergy. As you say many of them "are not listening to Christ" because they know they can't listen to Christ. A lot of the clergy are closet atheists who lost their faith while studying and living in their profession. They stay in the closet because so much is at stake for them. Their relationships and their income are tied to their avowed Christianity. If they confessed their atheism, then they would probably lose their jobs and many of their friends.

[tam]

Peace to you Jaqella,

[Replying to post 32 by tam]

I do not listen to the 'clergy' myself. Many - if not most - of them are not listening to Christ, but are instead just following the doctrines of their religions. I listen to Christ. I mean, who else is going to be able to teach us the truth of His Father, than the One who is the Word and Image of God?

I'd recommend you not be too quick to trust the clergy.

I do not put my faith or trust in them at all. Like I said, why would I go to men to learn about God, rather than to Christ? Why would anyone?

As you say many of them "are not listening to Christ" because they know they can't listen to Christ. A lot of the clergy are closet atheists who lost their faith while studying and living in their profession. They stay in the closet because so much is at stake for them. Their relationships and their income are tied to their avowed Christianity. If they confessed their atheism, then they would probably lose their jobs and many of their friends.

Yes, that is also true.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

It's wrong for the Catholics to do that, and it's wrong for the Jehovah's Witnesses to do that.

I agree; and any individuals that have knowingly done so, whatever his religion, is reprehensible.

It's the Watchtower's covering it up that's the problem.

The Watchtower Society has on occasion been held legally responsible for the bad choices of its members but even these cases are extremely rare and I cannot imagine that in today's world these occasions can realistically be reduced to zero. So far, however I can find no independent study that has proven that the Watchtower Society has a record of "covering up" - as in, systematically pursued a policy that hinders police investigations and makes it difficult or even impossible for victims to seek justice.

The Australian Royal Commission made recommendations, some of which the Jehovah's Witnesses agreed to consider, but to the best of my knowledge it did not accuse the Watchtower Society of a "cover up". I have found no legal entities that have made such a claim.

[Jagella]

It's wrong for the Catholics to do that, and it's wrong for the Jehovah's Witnesses to do that.

I agree; and any individuals that have knowingly done so, whatever his religion, is reprehensible.

It's the Watchtower's covering it up that's the problem.

The Watchtower Society has on occasion been held legally responsible for the bad choices of its members but even these cases are extremely rare and I cannot imagine that in today's world these occasions can realistically be reduced to zero. So far, however I can find no independent study that has proven that the Watchtower Society has a record of "covering up" - systematically pursued a policy that hinds police investigations and makes it difficult or even impossible for victims to seek justice.

The Australian Royal Commission made recommendations, some of which the Jehovah's Witnesses agreed to consider, but to the best of my knowledge it did not accuse the Watchtower Society of a "cover up". I have found no legal entities that have made such a claim.

The Watchtower child-sex abuse scandals are all over the internet. Here's another story: Jehovahs Witnesses tab for child sex abuse secrecy: $2M and counting. For your own good you really should leave the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 45 by Jagella]

There are 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world, that's about the population of Switzerland, of course there are going to be some cases of child abuse on the internet. If every case of child abuse in Switzerland was spoken of repeatedly all over the internet it would give the impression that there was a real problem there too.

The reason I'm only intersted in studies is individual cases don't indicate if there is significant (higher than average) number of such cases amongst the Jehovah's Witnesses or not. Anything I've personally found strongly indicates that is not the case.

Actual global percentages of reported cases or convictions of child abuse per year are near on impossible to find on the net, but there would have to be 8000 different cases a year, each and every year to amount to even 0.1% (80,000 over the past decade) and 0.1% that I'd hassard a guess, would be considered extremely low.

Did you count up individual 80,000 cases on the internet?


Child sexual abuse amongst Jehovah's Witnesses
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 077#912077

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

There is a huge difference between "mere" child abuse and child abuse scandals. While only the abuser is guilty of abuse, the organization as a whole is guilty of subsequent cover ups. If Switzerland have a system of protecting and hence enabling child abusers, then you bet there is a real problem there too.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

There is a huge difference between "mere" child abuse and child abuse scandals. While only the abuser is guilty of abuse, the organization as a whole is guilty of subsequent cover ups. If Switzerland have a system of protecting and hence enabling child abusers, then you bet there is a real problem there too.

All cases of child abuse are scandalous, whether they make the headlines or not.

If you have any official studies that draw the conclusion that the Jehovah's Witnesses have "a system of protecting and hence enabling child abusers" then I would be most interested in reading it and coming to my own conclusion about what has been written therein, but as I have repeatedly said, I have yet to be directed to such a study.

As tragic as individual cases are, there is no way to tally up the actual numbers by scrolling down an internet page but if you have a peer reviewed or government study that has come to these conclusions I would be most interested in a reference. Otherwise we're just dealing in headlines and impressions made thanks to media coverage and they are not necessarily reflective of the actual state of affairs on any subject.



JW


PS: The above is not mere rhetoric, I've tired myself out looking for studies on Jehovah's Witnesses and child abuse and I simply cannot find more than one. And the Australian Royal Commission is all I've come across in terms of analysis of the Jehovah's Witness system of reporting and monitoring. If you or anyone can find more that aren't just newspaper comment on individual cases, I would appreciate the input.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

There is a huge difference between "mere" child abuse and child abuse scandals. While only the abuser is guilty of abuse, the organization as a whole is guilty of subsequent cover ups. If Switzerland have a system of protecting and hence enabling child abusers, then you bet there is a real problem there too.

All cases of child abuse are scandalous, whether they make the headlines or not.

If you have any official studies that draw the conclusion that the Jehovah's Witnesses have "a system of protecting and hence enabling child abusers" then I would be most interested in reading it and coming to my own conclusion about what has been written therein, but as I have repeatedly said, I have yet to be directed to such a study.

As tragic as individual cases are, there is no way to tally up the actual numbers by scrolling down an internet page but if you have a peer reviewed or government study that has come to these conclusions I would be most interested in a reference. Otherwise we're just dealing in headlines and impressions made thanks to media coverage and they are not necessarily reflective of the actual state of affairs on any subject.



JW


PS: The above is not mere rhetoric, I've tired myself out looking for studies on Jehovah's Witnesses and child abuse and I simply cannot find more than one. And the Australian Royal Commission is all I've come across in terms of analysis of the Jehovah's Witness system of reporting and monitoring. If you or anyone can find more that aren't just newspaper comment on individual cases, I would appreciate the input.

You've probably already seen this:

http://jwsurvey.org/charity-commission/ ... -witnesses

The trouble is, these systemic problems are very hard to "do a study" on. When members of an organization are essentially pressured into not reporting, it's very difficult to get useful data. However, what data has been trickling out, does not look good. Just as with the Catholic church scandal, it started as a slow painful process to get victims to come forward. Once the media started reporting on these initial findings, the flood gates started to open. I imagine it will be the same in any organization. More people will be willing to come forward when they see they are not alone.

I still agree that the overall rate of abuse is likely no higher in any particular organization than the populace at large. However, this in itself is damning to organizations that claim guidance from some god like entity. Even more damning is when the organizations themselves are found to be trying to sweep the problems under the carpet. The Catholic church was trying to make it go away and from what little I've read (including the linked article above) it appears the JWs are no different.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 49 by benchwarmer]

No but from what I can see that source is not anywhere near government sponsered, nor peer reviewed.

I could "survey" my friends and family and put that on the internet but I'm sure you can appreciation that random "surveys" of this kind which are not conducted according to a controlled criteria are not what I'm looking for. Thanks for the link but I'm interested in published peer reviewed government (or university) papers.

As for your other comments regarding "systematic problems" and " [sweeping] the problems under the carpet", I think I've more or less addressed them in my earlier posts. Unless you have some hard evidence of the kind I'm looking for on this matter, it seems fair to conclude you are voicing your opinion formed from what you have read on the internet. The available analysis I have found suggest that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a problem of institutionalized cover ups.