I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #401

Post by Bust Nak »

olavisjo wrote:If they violate your morality, are you going to do something about it?
Sure, although it is a bit late in the case of Hitler.
If you are, then who or what gives you the right to do something about it?
My society gives me, and in turn I give my society the right to do something about it.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #402

Post by olavisjo »

Bust Nak wrote: My society gives me, and in turn I give my society the right to do something about it.
Again we have circular reasoning.

And is your society any more right than other societies?

I know my society has been and will be wrong on many issues, I hope yours does better.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #403

Post by Bust Nak »

olavisjo wrote:Again we have circular reasoning.
Then you misunderstand what I am saying. We mutally give each other the right, as opposed to I get rights then I can give it away.
And is your society any more right than other societies?
Yes, more right than Hitler's anyway.
I know my society has been and will be wrong on many issues, I hope yours does better.
I hope so too. If only my society would do exactly as I say.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #404

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:This is a new one for me. I have withdrawn from conversations with evolutionists because of adversarial comments but never the other way around. I do not deny the premise for the statement that you want me to withdraw, however I will withdraw it as it is unproductive and unnessesary and doesn't display my Christian values. So it is withdrawn.
Thank you.
As far as animals exhibiting altruistic behavior, without knowing their motivation and no one can then it isn't proof of anything.
The motivation is survival of the individual and the group of course. Those who behave morally in a social context survive and procreate which automatically selects for moral behavior.
As far as my comments or articles written by Phds about euthenasia or the violence toward or the neglect of the weak being an obvious outworking from an evolutionary framework, I do not retract.
As I have shown time and time again it is not an obvious outworking from an evolutionary framework. Quite the opposite. If it were, mongooses wouldn't support elderly, sick, or injured animals, bonobos wouldn't be aiding injured or handicapped bonobos would they?! Do you understand that? Do you get that? They wouldn't! Thanks to evolution they do! But Hitler and people like him don't understand this and think evolution is all about the strongest and what benefits just him or his country, not what benefits the most. Showing that they don't have or don't understand morals. This is my last attempt to try to explain evolution and morals to you. If this doesn't ring a bell, just say so and we'll end the conversation here. I can't reason someone out of something they haven't reasoned themselves into.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #405

Post by olavisjo »

Bust Nak wrote: Then you misunderstand what I am saying. We mutually give each other the right, as opposed to I get rights then I can give it away.
You are correct, I do misunderstand.

Can we agree that you can't give something you do not have?

So if you give society the right, then you must have it to give it, and vice versa. So someone must have it first in order to give it away, so who had it first and where did it come from?
Bust Nak wrote:
olavisjo wrote: I know my society has been and will be wrong on many issues, I hope yours does better.
I hope so too. If only my society would do exactly as I say.
Believe it or not, Osama bin Laden felt the same way about his society.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #406

Post by olavisjo »

Artie wrote:As I have shown time and time again it is not an obvious outworking from an evolutionary framework. Quite the opposite. If it were, mongooses wouldn't support elderly, sick, or injured animals, bonobos wouldn't be aiding injured or handicapped bonobos would they?! Do you understand that? Do you get that? They wouldn't! Thanks to evolution they do!
You are begging the question.

Your assumption that evolution gave bonobos altruism can't be supported by the fact that bonobos do show altruism.

Evolution made bonobos altruistic.
Bonobos are altruistic.
Therefore evolution made bonobos altruistic.

It is like saying...
You must like blue cars.
Your car is blue.
Therefore you like blue cars. (No, you don't like blue cars, you won the car in a lottery)
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

Artie
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #407

Post by Artie »

olavisjo wrote:Your assumption that evolution gave bonobos altruism can't be supported by the fact that bonobos do show altruism.

Evolution made bonobos altruistic.
Bonobos are altruistic.
Therefore evolution made bonobos altruistic.
I don't care about begging the question! You got the point! That is more important! :)

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #408

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
olavisjo wrote:Your assumption that evolution gave bonobos altruism can't be supported by the fact that bonobos do show altruism.

Evolution made bonobos altruistic.
Bonobos are altruistic.
Therefore evolution made bonobos altruistic.
I don't care about begging the question! You got the point! That is more important! :)
I think the point is that there was no point. Even if it were known (and it isn't) that animals behave altruistic on occasion that doesn't mean that evolution is responsible. The obvious natural outworking of evolution is the success of the strong at the expense of the weak. It is obvious that it would be a benefit to the strong to remove the weak, because the weak take supply away from the strong and contribute little or nothing. Darwin's title On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, illustrates this point perfectly. This title would also suggest that racism is perfectly consistent with evolution no matter how much sugar coating or selective spin the theory is given. It is so obvious that I don't know why evolutionists resist admitting it. It doesn't suggest that it is false just morally bankrupt.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #409

Post by Bust Nak »

olavisjo wrote:Can we agree that you can't give something you do not have?
Sure.
So if you give society the right, then you must have it to give it, and vice versa. So someone must have it first in order to give it away, so who had it first and where did it come from?
Rights are not something to give away, but like giving permission or approval.
Believe it or not, Osama bin Laden felt the same way about his society.
That's easy to believe. I suspect most people feel that way.
1robin wrote:The obvious natural outworking of evolution is the success of the strong at the expense of the weak. It is obvious that it would be a benefit to the strong to remove the weak, because the weak take supply away from the strong and contribute little or nothing.
That's one way to survive, but wouldn't you agree it's just as obvious that working as a team would also be of becoming stronger over others?
This title would also suggest that racism is perfectly consistent with evolution no matter how much sugar coating or selective spin the theory is given.
Sure, but understand that there is only one race of human.
It is so obvious that I don't know why evolutionists resist admitting it. It doesn't suggest that it is false just morally bankrupt.
Again, it's not that we don't admit slaying the weak is a valid survival strategy, it is. We don't find it acceptable exactly because it's morally bankrupt as you called it.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #410

Post by 1robin »

Bust Nak wrote:
olavisjo wrote:Can we agree that you can't give something you do not have?
Sure.
So if you give society the right, then you must have it to give it, and vice versa. So someone must have it first in order to give it away, so who had it first and where did it come from?
Rights are not something to give away, but like giving permission or approval.
Believe it or not, Osama bin Laden felt the same way about his society.
That's easy to believe. I suspect most people feel that way.
1robin wrote:The obvious natural outworking of evolution is the success of the strong at the expense of the weak. It is obvious that it would be a benefit to the strong to remove the weak, because the weak take supply away from the strong and contribute little or nothing.
That's one way to survive, but wouldn't you agree it's just as obvious that working as a team would also be of becoming stronger over others?
This title would also suggest that racism is perfectly consistent with evolution no matter how much sugar coating or selective spin the theory is given.
Sure, but understand that there is only one race of human.
It is so obvious that I don't know why evolutionists resist admitting it. It doesn't suggest that it is false just morally bankrupt.
Again, it's not that we don't admit slaying the weak is a valid survival strategy, it is. We don't find it acceptable exactly because it's morally bankrupt as you called it.
I have no responses to answer 1-3
.
response to Answer 4: Yes but whatever constitutes a team is still going to kill all competing groups if possible. Why would it be beneficial in evolution to retain team members that can't contribute little if anything.

response to Answer 5:I fail to see why this would stop racism as it obviously exists.
Favored races is just another way of saying the stronger group which would then eliminate the weaker competitors. Your statement just attempted to redefine group but it doesn't change the principal.

response to answer 6a: One of your cohorts earlier got so upset that I even suggested that evolution comes with some very distasteful implications that he/she refused to discuss it.

response 6b. Agree 100% with the difference that I don't believe in evolution for other reasons so its a moot point.

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