What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #481

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: Let me exercise my face muscles a bit.

Plantinga, Alvin (11 April 2010). "Evolution, Shibboleths, and Philosophers " Letters to the Editor". The Chronicle of Higher Education. ...I do indeed think that evolution functions as a contemporary shibboleth by which to distinguish the ignorant fundamentalist goats from the informed and scientifically literate sheep.

According to Richard Dawkins, 'It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).'
Daniel Dennett goes Dawkins one (or two) further: 'Anyone today who doubts that the variety of life on this planet was produced by a process of evolution is simply ignorant"inexcusably ignorant.' You wake up in the middle of the night; you think, can that whole Darwinian story really be true? Wham! You are inexcusably ignorant.

I do think that evolution has become a modern idol of the tribe. But of course it doesn't even begin to follow that I think the scientific theory of evolution is false. And I don't.


Image


Does the theory of evolution represent true science at its best?
Note this answer from Christoph Schnborn, Catholic archbishop of Vienna, quoted in The New York Times:
Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.
Is he wrong?
Once again, here it is, in plain view:
Naturalism
In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."
Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.
Philosophy and science

Naturalism (philosophy) is any of several philosophical stances wherein all phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural are either false or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses.
Spiritual naturalism, an approach to spirituality that is devoid of supernaturalism.
Religious naturalism, religious institutions, rituals, doctrines and communities which do not include supernatural beliefs.
The theory of evolution was started by the ideology (I call it scientific religion) called Naturalism, of which Charles Darwin, and his associates were the leaders.
Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809-1882) and others...

Iris Fry, The Emergence of Life on Earth, 2000, p. 184
...origin of life research consists in looking for a naturalistic alternative to the idea of the creation of life by a designer.
Practical atheism
In practical or pragmatic atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without reference to any deities. The existence of gods is not rejected, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view. A form of practical atheism with implications for the scientific community is methodological naturalism " the "tacit adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it.
Is it possible to push an agenda in science, and get away with it?
In other words, can scientists cheat, in order to establish an ideology?
[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/evolutionTheories/Scientific%20method%20-%20RationalWiki.mht]Cheating the scientific method[/url]
Pseudoscientists have discovered an obvious way to 'cheat' the scientific method. It goes like this:
Pick a personal belief that you already 'know' is true, but for which you want 'proof'.
Perform some related observations or experiments, and note the results.
Generate a hypothesis that shoehorns said results into your personal belief.
Falsely claim that your personal belief predicts the particular results, and that the observations/experiment confirmed your suspicions.
This is a blatant perversion of the scientific method, but to someone not versed in science, fallacies, or psychology, it might seem similar enough to be accepted as legitimate.
This manner of cheating has been used by proponents of intelligent design. Note that this isn't limited to pseudoscientists such as those trying to grant legitimacy to intelligent design, but is a mistake frequently made even by "proper" scientists, if they focus too much on finding evidence that supports their hypothesis (their "belief"), instead of focusing on attempting to find evidence that would refute it, or on attempting to find evidence that would refute competing hypotheses.
Which specific aspect of Naturalism did Darwin subscribe to?
Not sure. However,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view.
Can this work?

[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/other/What%20is%20the%20Relation%20between%20Science%20and%20Religion%20%20%20Reasonable%20Faith.mht]What is the Relation between Science and Religion[/url] - William Lane Craig
As Thaxton and Pearcey point out in their recent book The Soul of Science, for over 300 years between the rise of modern science in the 1500s and the late 1800s the relationship between science and religion can best be described as an alliance. Up until the late 19th century, scientists were typically Christian believers who saw no conflict between their science and their faith"people like Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, Kelvin, and others. The idea of a warfare between science and religion is a relatively recent invention of the late 19th century, carefully nurtured by secular thinkers who had as their aim the undermining of the cultural dominance of Christianity in the West and its replacement by naturalism " the view that nothing outside nature is real and the only way to discover truth is through science. They were remarkably successful in pushing through their agenda. But philosophers of science during the second half of the 20th century have come to realize that the idea of a warfare between science and theology is a gross oversimplification.

Sometimes you hear slogans like Science deals with facts and religion deals with faith. But this is a gross caricature of both science and religion. As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective. By the same token, it is simply false that religion makes no factual claims about the world.
I would say, it could work as it did in the past, but there is an obvious reason why it won't.

A new book of mythology...
Chapter 1 - The beginning of our universe
Once upon a time, billions of years ago - 13.8 billion years ago, to be exact...

Chapter 2 - The beginning of life on earth
Traveling through space on a massive chunk of debris from the exploded star, imbedded deep in its recesses, lay the exact formula that would give life to the mother of all life on the planet below - earth.
Image
Please stop commenting on evolution and defend your side of the argument.

Let's pretend for a moment, that the Christian god started life off on this planet, starting here perhaps will help you follow along. You with me so far? So the Christian god created some life, and the theory of evolution is the best explanation so far that we have for the diversity of life we see now on this planet, and also in the fossil record.

If you disagree, pretend that evolution has been faulsified and give us your best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.

See the bold? Please, let's all pretend that evolution is falsified. Seriously, you have no reason to whine, cry or pretend that evolution started life on this planet.

GIVE US WHAT YOU GOT, PLEASE!

You complain and complain and complain about a theory you don't fully grasp yet, and you give us absolutely nothing in return for us to examine.

The score is metaphorically 20 to 0. Stop complaining about us having a higher score then you and actually take a shot on goal!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #482

Post by theStudent »

Clownboat wrote:Let's pretend for a moment, that the Christian god started life off on this planet
So, first of all, based on what you presented here:
Clownboat wrote:So the Christian god created some life, and the theory of evolution is the best explanation so far that we have for the diversity of life we see now on this planet, and also in the fossil record.
I have a few questions.
  1. If God started some life, what is that "some life", and what evidence do you have for your idea?
  2. If God started some life, how did evolution occur?
    • There are conflicting ideas, and much speculation, on how life began, and how it evolved.
      How would you be able to solve that conflict, by adding God to the picture?
      Is that not just placing God in a picture where inconsistent stories exist, making him part of man's conflicting ideas?
  3. If God started some life, that would then evolve into all life forms, why
    1. did major ancestors become extinct? Why did some disappear from the scene, when others came on the scene? Would you speculate that God put within then an execution gene - mission acomplished - destroyer gene activated?
    2. did the process of splitting into different branches of organisms eventually stop?
  4. If God started some life, why would he fail to communicate with life that would
    1. evolve brains, to begin to reason, and wonder, "Why am I here?"
    2. evolve minds that seem to want to connect to a higher intelligence?


Clownboat wrote:...pretend that evolution has been faulsified and give us your best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
Although I can put it in my own words, that would be a lot of words, so this is easily the
best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
Follow this link: Was Life Created?
Also, there is more on the fossils record in Section 4 of this booklet.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #483

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote:
Clownboat wrote:Let's pretend for a moment, that the Christian god started life off on this planet
So, first of all, based on what you presented here:
Clownboat wrote:So the Christian god created some life, and the theory of evolution is the best explanation so far that we have for the diversity of life we see now on this planet, and also in the fossil record.
I have a few questions.
  1. If God started some life, what is that "some life", and what evidence do you have for your idea?
  2. If God started some life, how did evolution occur?
    • There are conflicting ideas, and much speculation, on how life began, and how it evolved.
      How would you be able to solve that conflict, by adding God to the picture?
      Is that not just placing God in a picture where inconsistent stories exist, making him part of man's conflicting ideas?
  3. If God started some life, that would then evolve into all life forms, why
    1. did major ancestors become extinct? Why did some disappear from the scene, when others came on the scene? Would you speculate that God put within then an execution gene - mission acomplished - destroyer gene activated?
    2. did the process of splitting into different branches of organisms eventually stop?
  4. If God started some life, why would he fail to communicate with life that would
    1. evolve brains, to begin to reason, and wonder, "Why am I here?"
    2. evolve minds that seem to want to connect to a higher intelligence?


Clownboat wrote:...pretend that evolution has been faulsified and give us your best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
Although I can put it in my own words, that would be a lot of words, so this is easily the
best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
Follow this link: Was Life Created?
Also, there is more on the fossils record in Section 4 of this booklet.
Once again you offer absolutely zero worth to the discussion.
It seems that you have no mechanism to discuss (about the life we see now and in the fossil record) and you seem unwilling to consider anything that might take your pipe dream of some magical afterlife away.
You can't even consider evolution as a mechanism when I propose a hypothetical scenario that your god initially created life. :roll:

Be well...
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #484

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 480 by Clownboat]

I've seen that scene played out in this thread numerous times.
Ask for evidence - When it's given - Do a Houdini.

That's always the easiest way to avoid confronting the truth.
Take evasive measures, and use the back exit.
Peace.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #485

Post by JoeyKnothead »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 480 by Clownboat]

I've seen that scene played out in this thread numerous times.
Ask for evidence - When it's given - Do a Houdini.

That's always the easiest way to avoid confronting the truth.
Take evasive measures, and use the back exit.
Peace.
Image
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Post #486

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 482 by JoeyKnothead]

Nice animation.
I actually like it.
Only, I'm not going to insinuate anything, that would be against forum rules - one of which...
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #487

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to post 481 by theStudent]

Are you perhaps referring to the entire discussion about ERV's we had, which ended with you attempting to force the topic in a direction more favorable to you? Say, one which involved posting a laundry list of unrelated points that ultimately did nothing but highlight your unwillingness to address actual evidence?

Or are you going to say that the half dozen articles I linked don't sufficiently qualify as evidence?
You also know that when an opponent loses, the game ends.
So it's your turn.

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Post #488

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 482 by JoeyKnothead]

Besides, that irony meter cannot apply to the post above, since theStudent has never ran away from any information, even though there was hardly any given.
The most information theStudent got was, "You don't understand." "Youre ignorant." "This is nonsense." and other remarks of that nature.
Even that theStudent has never ran away from.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #489

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 484 by Neatras]

You changed the game.
I actually thought it was named "Dodge Ball".

When I said it was your turn, I didn't mean, it was your turn to dodge the challenge, and start a new game, on who could answer the most posts.
I never agreed to such a game.

If you are ready to continue from where we left off, I think you know where to find the "labs". If you don't, I can direct you.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #490

Post by Neatras »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 482 by JoeyKnothead]

Besides, that irony meter cannot apply to the post above, since theStudent has never ran away from any information, even though there was hardly any given.
The most information theStudent got was, "You don't understand." "Youre ignorant." "This is nonsense." and other remarks of that nature.
Even that theStudent has never ran away from.
I must've missed your response then. Unless you conclude that not answering, or objecting to information raised doesn't constitute running away. And RIGHT as I bring substantial evidence.

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