Israel a pariah nation

[Misty]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 195838.stm

It is a great pity Israel was ever permitted to create their own nation without the same privilege being granted to the Palestinians. If the US hadn't supported them over the years maybe they would be so militant. I don't support violence from either side, but Israel seems to be the aggressor in most conflicts.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 48:

I 'preciate Solon taking the time and effort to address my concerns, and I agree he makes some dang strong points...

How SHOULD Israel defend itself?...

I propose by any legitimate means at its disposal.

The question is what the definition of legitimate here. I'd encourage you to weigh in though.

What works? A nation has a responsibility to defend itself.

I present "legitimate" to mean in accordance with international law, but realize a nation at war for its very existence must ultimately make that determination.

Even in the face of provocative acts under the guise of "humanitarian aid". Israel's enemies find newer and more subtle means to seek its destruction with each news cycle.

And so knowing that their every decision is under a microscope now, fair or not Israel must weigh their options with an eye towards PR. That is the new field of battle against Hamas.

Agreed with caveats. The history of the Jews, and Israel as a nation, is such that what seems a perfectly irrational method to me may seem proper to them.

Concrete and practical I can't comment on, but "STOP LOBBING OR TOTING BOMBS INTO ISRAEL" needs to be said, apparently loudly and often.

Good, now who is doing that. How many out of 1.5 million in Gaza are the ones who do so.

How many do you find acceptable? I prefer 0.

How many more who aren't angry enough yet will become so while under a siege they had no hand in causing as they were, say, 14 when it started, but now are approaching 18 and the only available job are from guys who seem to be willing to stand up to the guys who bulldozed your childhood home because someone they thought might have something to do with a rocket lived on the floor above you?

Plenty fair. This is indeed why Israel should consider its options with a very critical mind. This doesn't mean they should bind themselves to thinking that just not defending themselves will solve things.

If the solution to rockets today guarantees people willing to fire rockets tomorrow that isn't much of a solution.

That's just it, even if Israel could stop the attacks even though they offer land and other concessions, why would they bother changing their position?

I do agree both sides seem "locked in" to their methods, and no easy solutions are available. My contention is that until folks decide they'll stop trying to annihilate Israel, Israel should not be held responsible for defending herself, such defense to include a mighty offense.

[Solon]

The question is what the definition of legitimate here. I'd encourage you to weigh in though.

What works? A nation has a responsibility to defend itself.

I'd say the responsibility is to defend its citizens. Not to suggest Israel is a tyrannical rogue state, it is not, but does a tyrannical rogue nation have a responsibility to defend itself against the attacks of a revolutionary force trying to free itself from oppression?

I present "legitimate" to mean in accordance with international law, but realize a nation at war for its very existence must ultimately make that determination.

So international law until you decide otherwise? What limit when fight for existence? Is there no line not to be crossed? Is any weapon and any tactic too heinous to ever be used?

There is a saying, "Character is who you are in the dark." Perhaps we could say that character is the line you will not cross, even to save yourself. There are things I could do, even if to preserve my life that would render it not worth saving in my eyes. Perhaps you feel differently.

Agreed with caveats. The history of the Jews, and Israel as a nation, is such that what seems a perfectly irrational method to me may seem proper to them.

I don't deny subjectivity and very different perspectives, but I think it is a fact that reality doesn't check to see if it's being fair. I did invoke Jackie Robinson as an example in a response to cnorman.

Good, now who is doing that. How many out of 1.5 million in Gaza are the ones who do so.

How many do you find acceptable? I prefer 0.

So would I, but that wasn't my point. Rather that is how many people are in Gaza. How many of them deserve to be under siege or have any control over the rockets? How many people, innocent of attacking Israel, is it acceptable to punish for actions not their own? Give me a number.

That's just it, even if Israel could stop the attacks even though they offer land and other concessions, why would they bother changing their position?

I do agree both sides seem "locked in" to their methods, and no easy solutions are available. My contention is that until folks decide they'll stop trying to annihilate Israel, Israel should not be held responsible for defending herself, such defense to include a mighty offense.

I'd like to refer you to the section of post 47 where I mention that I don't think peace can come from this generation and then outline ideas to help a young generation have hope at getter further than this one in moving towards peace. I don't know how to link to the middle of a post or a section so I hope you don't mind scrolling up.

[cnorman18]

I'll be bowing out of this debate now.

After some consideration, I find my position unchanged. No building materials, no jobs, no school supplies? Boo, hoo, hoo. Stop killing people and turn in those who do and you'll have all you want.

Let me quote from a PM I just sent to Solon:

"Thanks very much. I'm not at all offended by anything you've written: I'm not even offended by Misty's remarks, though I regard her as one who has simply swallowed the Palestinian propaganda line and doesn't have much regard for facts.

"I could be criticized as swallowing the pro-Israel line too, I suppose; but then I happily admit my bias. Those are my people over there. I also acknowledge that intelligent people of good will can disagree.

"Fanaticism annoys me, including my own - which is why I don't usually get into Israel threads.

"Thanks for the private word. I have a great deal of respect for you as well - no fanatic, you, but thoughtful, intelligent and principled, and a person debating with good will and in good faith. If you've been around here long, you know that that isn't always the case.

"The only thing that really enrages me is blatant antisemitism. The only reason I am participating in this thread is that I haven't seen it."

I've enjoyed the thread: but my own convictions, or biases if you like, are not likely to further this debate. So, without prejudice to any conclusions, I respectfully absent myself with good will to all.

[Solon]

I'll be bowing out of this debate now.

After some consideration, I find my position unchanged. No building materials, no jobs, no school supplies? Boo, hoo, hoo. Stop killing people and turn in those who do and you'll have all you want.

The people doing the killing aren't the ones who need it most. We should punish children because their parents are afraid of Hamas retaliation for turning in their fighters? How is that a tenable situation? I find my position hasn't changed either, I guess we're just stubborn. (Although stubborn in our carefully examined positions)

I've enjoyed the thread: but my own convictions, or biases if you like, are not likely to further this debate. So, without prejudice to any conclusions, I respectfully absent myself with good will to all.

Thanks for the compliments. I have enjoyed the thread as well, we all have our biases; they are unavoidable. Knowing them is something not everyone does. You have a leg up on a lot of people there. As I mentioned in my PM I have a great respect for your intelligence and the level of discourse you bring to the table. I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't a little nervous about engaging you in this thread. I think I've said about all I'd like to for now on this as well. Be well cnorman.