Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[Danmark]

Your conclusion is unwarranted. More importantly your attitude toward the natural cycle of life and death surprises me. How sad for you.

Attitude is everything.

Don't you agree that this can be a wonderful world and a world of wonder?
It's a joy just to be alive, to learn, to explore, to travel. The more nature is revealed, the more wondrous it seems. There's so much to do and yet it's great to just relax.

If you close your mind to the suffering that exist.....Everything can be great.
And that because you have it good.

I'm blessed to live where I do, with easy access to rivers, forests and mountains. As much fun as it is to go camping with friends, sometimes I like to go out alone, to pitch a tent beside a clear mountain stream and enjoy a good book. Other times I find myself just sitting and drinking in the beauty, enjoying it without words.

This goes to " Drink, enjoy, be merry because this is all there is"

It's as if the beauty of nature radiates palpable goodness, nourishing the mind as if by magic. And sometimes it is good to just lie down . . . to sleep, letting consciousness quietly slip away. Someday it will slip away and the comforting rest will be dreamless.

Yet...again...You live in a dream world where everything is roses then you die.
If a person can't be outside enjoying the lilies of the fields like you....Well tough, better luck next time! Wait there is no next time so the the homeless must just enjoy his limbs being frozen. While you grasp in your lottery.

Why so eager to rain on parades? It's as if you aren't happy unless others are miserable. I've worked with people who were quadriplegics. I've seen some who were miserable, others who triumphed over their circumstances by sheer attitude.

I am indeed privileged. I have been lucky to have friends and family who are delightful. What father would not be proud to boast he has a daughter who graduated from Harvard Law school? I have work I enjoy that affords me the opportunity to visit those in pain and in jails. Some of them are better off in jail than what awaits them outside, so I am hardly unaware of pain and suffering. Helping them is tonic for me. I've worked since I was 4 years old and not always at tasks I enjoyed. Now I get to enjoy some of the fruits of that labor.

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

You really have a problem with any of that?

[stubbornone]

Hi stubbornone

The only thing all atheists generally can be said to have in common is that they don't believe in gods. Personally I hold the view that morality is a logical result of evolution. Organisms started cooperating. Cooperating organisms survived better than those who didn't. Cooperation automatically produced a common set of codes called morals that improved cooperation and therefore chances of survival. So we have logic, reason, common sense, compassion, empathy, altruism, love, the Golden rule etc etc. I know why we have these and why they are important to follow. For those who don't understand we evolved justice systems and religions. Justice systems protect immoral people from the rest of us, and for example Christianity teaches morality and tell people if they are moral they'll survive forever which of course is just a way of taking the concept that if you follow evolved morality you enhance your chances of survival one step further so as to entice as many people as possible to behave morally.

Then why do most animals not follow our same moral code? Why to lions, when taking over a pride, kill the cubs to induce heat into the female lions earlier? Why do bull seals, in their competitions of rutting, often trample new borns? Why are some species of duck, so prone to rape, have special genitalia the allows females to block insemination as a result of frequent rape? The list goes on ...

Because of course not all social structures are equal so the codes that evolved weren't the same. Why in the world would you think the same codes could possibly apply to a lion as a human? Lions and humans are different you see both physically, mentally and live in different places under different conditions.

In other words, there is no ability whatsoever to demonstrate that which you say. In fact, all those things we consider moral, are of course evolving differently? Therefore, any random thing that is observed is of course the result of evolutionary morality?

In short, you have an unproveable claim, indeed, one that is not even capable of being examined.

And in a social context in such societies that people live the fittest is the one that follows the evolutionary moral codes otherwise he'll end up in jail. The unfit are those who end up in jail.

Again, if the goal ala animals is to spread genes, than I have no business as a man being married or behaving morally do I? I just have to screw as many women as possible and block other men from doing the same ... which is what happens in the animal world.

And who puts animals in jail? Right, no one. Who put proto-humans in jail? Right, no one. The moral codes that develop, by your own example, are the results of inducement to fear - which is conversely what you atheists are saying about religious people? Odd.

Indeed, we humans alone have the capacity to reason, to read, and to understand, and make informed moral decisions. It goes directly to the heart of the atheist claims in this thread, that people, moved by example or information, will make choices in term sof morality -- something that cannot be the result of evolution, but only personal decision. Indeed, some humans choose to be rapists EVEN with the idea of copper out there chasing them. Some having read God's view on sexuality, take oaths of celebacy and serve only others. Celebacy strike you as a particularly evolutionary process?

Indeed, there are no written treatises on morality that animals study and adopt are there?

Hence the demonstrability different reality between human and animal morality.

Of course there aren't. Many animals don't need treatises to behave morally in social contexts. Just see altruism in animals in Wikipedia. Only immoral humans need religions and moral treatises to study and adopt. Moral humans wouldn't need them would they?

Indeed, many animals do not behave morally at all ... kinda the point.

Indeed, you keep attempting to use animals to prove your hypothesis, but your opening statement means you are ONLY looking at what conforms your own theory.

If you have any more questions or comments it might be more productive if you made one point at a time so I could be more precise in my explanations and get better continuity?

It might be best if you simply wrote out how you arrived at your conclusions. I.e. support your thesis.

[stubbornone]

Your conclusion is unwarranted. More importantly your attitude toward the natural cycle of life and death surprises me. How sad for you.

Attitude is everything.

Don't you agree that this can be a wonderful world and a world of wonder?
It's a joy just to be alive, to learn, to explore, to travel. The more nature is revealed, the more wondrous it seems. There's so much to do and yet it's great to just relax.

If you close your mind to the suffering that exist.....Everything can be great.
And that because you have it good.

I'm blessed to live where I do, with easy access to rivers, forests and mountains. As much fun as it is to go camping with friends, sometimes I like to go out alone, to pitch a tent beside a clear mountain stream and enjoy a good book. Other times I find myself just sitting and drinking in the beauty, enjoying it without words.

This goes to " Drink, enjoy, be merry because this is all there is"

It's as if the beauty of nature radiates palpable goodness, nourishing the mind as if by magic. And sometimes it is good to just lie down . . . to sleep, letting consciousness quietly slip away. Someday it will slip away and the comforting rest will be dreamless.

Yet...again...You live in a dream world where everything is roses then you die.
If a person can't be outside enjoying the lilies of the fields like you....Well tough, better luck next time! Wait there is no next time so the the homeless must just enjoy his limbs being frozen. While you grasp in your lottery.

Why so eager to rain on parades? It's as if you aren't happy unless others are miserable. I've worked with people who were quadriplegics. I've seen some who were miserable, others who triumphed over their circumstances by sheer attitude.

I am indeed privileged. I have been lucky to have friends and family who are delightful. What father would not be proud to boast he has a daughter who graduated from Harvard Law school? I have work I enjoy that affords me the opportunity to visit those in pain and in jails. Some of them are better off in jail than what awaits them outside, so I am hardly unaware of pain and suffering. Helping them is tonic for me. I've worked since I was 4 years old and not always at tasks I enjoyed. Now I get to enjoy some of the fruits of that labor.

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

You really have a problem with any of that?

What the hell does this post have to the with the OP?

Seems more like simple contrarianism, wherein anything Tex says ... Dan finds some random opposite to preach about.

Thesis, support it ... if you can.

[Tex]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

[stubbornone]

Tithing was done and made under the religious principals of charity. And also, self sacrifice.

It was done under a notion being spoken from the Apostles of God to give to others, that they are your brothers. Indeed the faithful people of christ are following his footsteps, as christ have clearly said "there is no greater love than giving your life for a brother". Christ was not speaking of "dying" for another, althogh it can be said that way, but it was also in refernce to "feeding" the church, or the kingdom of God, in turn, giving life to another, and sacrificing your own luxury of life.

Also, 10% was ordered by God because it resembeles excellence, or perfection, as in God. And from God was made society, you can simply look at our general grading system. 100 to 90 percent being A, or excellence, indeed it is a note of supremacy noting 10 percentism.

Charity along with self sacrifice was the given prinipal of Christs teachings, indeed the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens.

Remember Truth, tithing is an obligation, a command from God. It is a duty. A free will offering in addition to your tithe is charity. I hope you are not just doing the minimum.

I know you like numbers Truth, and imbue them with your special meanings, but where did you come up with '10' as the perfect number according to God? I was under the impression '7' was the number of perfection . . . along with '3'. I'm relatively sure God likes prime numbers.

I'm curious about how you came up with " the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens." I didn't realize heaven had levels. Also, your statement suggests that the people who are not "of christianity" may be allowed to hang around on some of the lower levels. That would be cool . . . or at least cooler than the alternative.

Didn't we ALREADY address this in a differnt thread?

Yep.

I believe I provided references to Paul?

"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in corruption:

1 Corinthians 15: 40-42

And then there is simple Dante, who, thought not doctrinal, has influenced Christian thought, particularly about heaven and hell, wherein he claims there are seven.

Yet here, the simple point, doctrinally sound, that there are differing levels of heaven based on our conduct here on Earth?

And you wonder why I find atheists so often to be dishonest. I mean what would you call raising the same point over and over again, randomly simply to spite Christians with deliberate ignorance? Not honest comes immediately to mind.

Please regal us with something relevant.

[Danmark]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

Can't I just be grateful?

Whaassamatta you? Do you even have to argue about being happy?

[Danmark]

Your conclusion is unwarranted. More importantly your attitude toward the natural cycle of life and death surprises me. How sad for you.

Attitude is everything.

Don't you agree that this can be a wonderful world and a world of wonder?
It's a joy just to be alive, to learn, to explore, to travel. The more nature is revealed, the more wondrous it seems. There's so much to do and yet it's great to just relax.

If you close your mind to the suffering that exist.....Everything can be great.
And that because you have it good.

I'm blessed to live where I do, with easy access to rivers, forests and mountains. As much fun as it is to go camping with friends, sometimes I like to go out alone, to pitch a tent beside a clear mountain stream and enjoy a good book. Other times I find myself just sitting and drinking in the beauty, enjoying it without words.

This goes to " Drink, enjoy, be merry because this is all there is"

It's as if the beauty of nature radiates palpable goodness, nourishing the mind as if by magic. And sometimes it is good to just lie down . . . to sleep, letting consciousness quietly slip away. Someday it will slip away and the comforting rest will be dreamless.

Yet...again...You live in a dream world where everything is roses then you die.
If a person can't be outside enjoying the lilies of the fields like you....Well tough, better luck next time! Wait there is no next time so the the homeless must just enjoy his limbs being frozen. While you grasp in your lottery.

Why so eager to rain on parades? It's as if you aren't happy unless others are miserable. I've worked with people who were quadriplegics. I've seen some who were miserable, others who triumphed over their circumstances by sheer attitude.

I am indeed privileged. I have been lucky to have friends and family who are delightful. What father would not be proud to boast he has a daughter who graduated from Harvard Law school? I have work I enjoy that affords me the opportunity to visit those in pain and in jails. Some of them are better off in jail than what awaits them outside, so I am hardly unaware of pain and suffering. Helping them is tonic for me. I've worked since I was 4 years old and not always at tasks I enjoyed. Now I get to enjoy some of the fruits of that labor.

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

You really have a problem with any of that?

What the hell does this post have to the with the OP?

Seems more like simple contrarianism, wherein anything Tex says ... Dan finds some random opposite to preach about.

Thesis, support it ... if you can.

You guys crack me up. Go off topic (allegedly) then complain when your question is answered. Even a post on being happy and enjoying life gets cranky rise out of the doom and gloom crowd. Not a particularly good recommendation for your belief system.

And YOU, complaining about 'contrarianism' and 'preaching'. More projection.

I have to congratulate you tho', you managed to get thru a post without saying 'silliness' or 'victim.' Well done.

... Tho' I have to knock off a point for cursing.

[Tex]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

Can't I just be grateful?

Whaassamatta you? Do you even have to argue about being happy?

I just don't understand how you can say...you are grateful....Just to say "grateful".
do you mean to your parents? Who gave you life.

You know...........Like: Thanks Mom and Dad for this great life you have given me.

[Artie]

To stubbornone:

Your latest answer to me was so full of misunderstandings that I can't correct them all in detail. If you like me to explain things properly please try one question or point at a time. If you really like to learn please start with

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

and take it from there. There's lots of information available.

[Divine Insight]

The whole idea of this post stems from one not acknowledging God.

You'd need to show the existence of a God that's worth acknowledging.

I can give you countless reason why the Hebrew fables have no more merit than Greek Mythology.

Moreover, I would be extremely disappointed in any so-called God who was so crude and ignorant to be part of a plan to have his only begotten son beaten and nailed to a pole just to make some sort of point to humanity.

IMHO, any entity who would devise such a hideous plan would not be a God but a demon. So the Christian fables cannot possibly be about a "God" as far as I'm concerned because that God would necessarily be far beneath me in terms of morality and wisdom. I don't care what his reasons are, the very idea of having his own son beaten and nailed to a pole as an exhibition to humanity of his love, is extremely unwise, IMHO.

That kind of behavior is not going to cause me to have any respect for this supposed God.

So why should I acknowledge fables about a God whose behavior is far beneath anything that I would personally condone?

As I have said many time, even if these fables turned out to be true and our creator is truly this ignorant, then all I could do is weep in disgust and sorrow that our creator turned out to be so ignorant.

I would certainly not worship this creator, nor respect him, nor would I rejoice in anyway. On the contrary, if Christianity is true, that's the saddest thing that could happen. A purely secular existence would be far more honorable and attractive.

So there's nothing worth of acknowledging here. There's no reason to believe that these ancient superstitious rumors are true, and even if they were true that would just be a totally disappointing and extremely sad situation.

So there's nothing to acknowledge.

Hell is one of the obstacle that make on believe in faith and it is indeed a truthful one. for all one can note, a person of faith can crossover to Afica and simply preach of love that stemmed from Christ. Without awareness of punishment however(hell), one dictates ones own orders and way of life.

But Christians don't preach the love of Christ. On the contrary they preach that anything short of the idol worship of Jesus as the Christ is reason for damnation.

It has nothing to do with love at all. It's entirely about the idol worship of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of the fictitious God of the Hebrews.

Love and morality are a totally moot point.

Just look at what you are doing. I've told you that I totally support love and morality. Yet this isn't good enough for you. You won't be happy until Jesus is idolized as "The Christ" and used to support the ignorance of the Old Testament as the "Word of God", even though the Gospels clearly have Jesus himself rejecting those immoral practices via his own teaching.

Jesus himself did not embrace the immoral teachings of the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has God commanding people to judge each other and to stone heathens and sinners to death. Jesus renounced the judging of others and taught people not to judge others. Jesus also taught people not to cast the first stone, so he rejected the stoning to death of sinners too.

Jesus didn't 'acknowledge' the God of the Old Testament anymore than I do.

The religion of Christianity isn't about love and morality. It's about idolizing Jesus.

The Pharisees nailed physically had Jesus nailed to a pole. The Christians (i.e. the authors of the New Testament) then crucified Jesus as second time by nailing him to the Old Testament via attempting to make out like he was the demigod Son of the God of Abraham.

Jesus could not have been the demigod son of a God that he didn't even agree with.

So the only thing left to 'acknowledge' here is that the Gospels rumors are indeed nothing more than superstitious fantasy. They have no more merit than the Greek mythology of Zeus and company.

Also your first words in this post prove my point:

The whole idea of this post stems from one not acknowledging God.

Christianity isn't about love and morality. It's entirely about acknowledging Christianity to be the "Word of God".

That's the goal of evangelism. Not to spread love and morality, but rather to spread the idea that their myth must be acknowledged as the "Word of God".

That, my friend, is precisely all that it's about.

If fact the proof is given by the topic of this very thread. Christianity would condemn a moral atheist just because that atheist doesn't acknowledge the Christian myth.

Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with love or morality. Its sole purpose is the idol worship of Jesus as "The Christ". That's all that Christianity stands for.

Love and morality take a very far back seat to the idol worship of Jesus as "The Christ".

You can be the most loving and moral person on the planet, if you aren't worshiping Jesus as an idol, then the Christians will condemn you.

That is their only focus. Jesus must be worshiped as an idol. Period.