Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[marke]

Marke: Disbelieving miracles does not disprove miracles.

No one claimed such a thing. Your response is delusional.

Besides, how can unbelievers disbelieve the miracle of God's creation of the ordered universe by design while deliberately choosing to believe the miracle of creation was an unplanned accident of freak nature?

All it takes is honesty. It is honest when I say that i don't know how the universe came about and I am not nor do I claim that some unplanned accident or freak of nature caused it. To pretend to know the unknowable is delusional.

It is hard to debate delusions. Are you unable to do better? Please be honest so readers can decide if they should take advantage of the 'ignore' feature built in to this forum.

Be well.

Marke: Evolutionists are like Dawkins who admitted he knew nothing about the origin of life on earth except that he somehow knew for a fact that God was not involved.

[marke]

Ther is zero evidence for evolution. Not a single iota or atom of anything evolved from anything else.

Other than the fact that we see it happen, all the time, right before our eyes.

I guess you're expecting people here to just go with your empty say-so over observed reality or something?

All scientists who claim evolution is true are GOD hating pagans.

Like Francis Collins?

Marke: Can anyone believe the guy who lied about covid's development at Wuhan in order to hide the millions of dollars he made for himself because of covid?/b]

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/200 ... s-collins/

All the supposed evolution links are merely similar creatures that died out during The Flood - which scientists don't believe.

Some living things - roses, dogs - can be selectively bred to have a vast range of differences but all roses are roses and all dogs is dogs and all dogs can clearly tell what is a dog and what is not.

On the other hand evolution's hero Satan's crossbreeding did result in the Nephilim and various hybrids before teh Flood - during which GOD drowned all the chimeras.
But it looks like he is once agian crossbreeding by using bodies, tissues and samples taken from abducted humans and cows that his UFO crews are constantly seeking.

The moon is made of cheese.

See? Anyone can go online and post all sorts of crazy crap. Doesn't make it true though.

[Clownboat]

Marke: Evolutionists are like Dawkins who admitted he knew nothing about the origin of life on earth except that he somehow knew for a fact that God was not involved.[/b]

Please educate yourself on the matter as you are demonstrably wrong.

ev-o-lu-tion-ist
/evlooSHnst/
noun
a person who believes in the theories of evolution and natural selection.

Notice how origins and the gods are not involved. You have demonstrated a severe lack of understanding and only you can correct yourself.
Allah has told me that you will not correct your thinking though. He knows that you believe a lie to protect a religion that you know in your heart is wrong. Thank you for demonstrating the power of Allah!

[marke]

Marke: Evolutionists are like Dawkins who admitted he knew nothing about the origin of life on earth except that he somehow knew for a fact that God was not involved.[/b]

Please educate yourself on the matter as you are demonstrably wrong.

ev-o-lu-tion-ist
/evlooSHnst/
noun
a person who believes in the theories of evolution and natural selection.

Notice how origins and the gods are not involved. You have demonstrated a severe lack of understanding and only you can correct yourself.
Allah has told me that you will not correct your thinking though. He knows that you believe a lie to protect a religion that you know in your heart is wrong. Thank you for demonstrating the power of Allah!

Marke: I understand. Secular evolutionist devotees insist science makes faith in God stupid and unscientific. Sadly for them, evolutionist devotees are wrong in that regard.

[Clownboat]

Marke: Evolutionists are like Dawkins who admitted he knew nothing about the origin of life on earth except that he somehow knew for a fact that God was not involved.[/b]

Please educate yourself on the matter as you are demonstrably wrong.

ev-o-lu-tion-ist
/evlooSHnst/
noun
a person who believes in the theories of evolution and natural selection.

Notice how origins and the gods are not involved. You have demonstrated a severe lack of understanding and only you can correct yourself.
Allah has told me that you will not correct your thinking though. He knows that you believe a lie to protect a religion that you know in your heart is wrong. Thank you for demonstrating the power of Allah!

Marke: I understand. Secular evolutionist devotees insist science makes faith in God stupid and unscientific. Sadly for them, evolutionist devotees are wrong in that regard.

Thank you for demonstrating the power of Allah! What's next?

[Jose Fly]

Can anyone believe the guy who lied about covid's development at Wuhan in order to hide the millions of dollars he made for himself because of covid?

I think you're confusing Dr. Collins with someone else. If you don't have a checkable source for the above, then it's no better than "the moon is made of cheese".

[marke]

Can anyone believe the guy who lied about covid's development at Wuhan in order to hide the millions of dollars he made for himself because of covid?

I think you're confusing Dr. Collins with someone else. If you don't have a checkable source for the above, then it's no better than "the moon is made of cheese".

Marke:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other people named Francis Collins, see Francis Collins (disambiguation).
Francis Collins

Official portrait, 2017
Science Advisor to the President
Acting
In office
February 18, 2022 October 3, 2022
President Joe Biden
Preceded by Eric Lander
Succeeded by Arati Prabhakar
16th Director of the National Institutes of Health
In office
August 17, 2009 December 19, 2021
President Barack Obama
Donald Trump
Joe Biden
Deputy Lawrence A. Tabak
Preceded by Raynard S. Kington (acting)
Succeeded by Lawrence A. Tabak (acting)
2nd Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute
In office
April 1993 August 1, 2008
President Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Preceded by Michael M. Gottesman (acting)
Succeeded by Alan Edward Guttmacher (acting)
Personal details
Born Francis Sellers Collins
April 14, 1950 (age 74)
Staunton, Virginia, U.S.
Spouse Diane Baker
Children 2
Education University of Virginia (BS)
Yale University (MS, PhD)
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill (MD)
Scientific career
Fields Molecular genetics
Institutions
University of Michigan
National Human Genome Research Institute
National Institutes of Health
Thesis Semiclassical theory of vibrationally inelastic scattering, with application to H+ + H (1974)
Doctoral advisor James Cross
Francis Collins's voice
Duration: 5 minutes and 54 seconds.5:54
Francis Collins speaks on the development of the COVID-19 vaccine
Recorded September 9, 2020
Francis Sellers Collins ForMemRS (born April 14, 1950) is an American physician-scientist who discovered the genes associated with a number of diseases and led the Human Genome Project. He served as director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland, from 17 August 2009 to 19 December 2021, serving under three presidents.[1][2]

[Jose Fly]

Can anyone believe the guy who lied about covid's development at Wuhan in order to hide the millions of dollars he made for himself because of covid?

I think you're confusing Dr. Collins with someone else. If you don't have a checkable source for the above, then it's no better than "the moon is made of cheese".

Marke:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other people named Francis Collins, see Francis Collins (disambiguation).
Francis Collins

Official portrait, 2017
Science Advisor to the President
Acting
In office
February 18, 2022 October 3, 2022
President Joe Biden
Preceded by Eric Lander
Succeeded by Arati Prabhakar
16th Director of the National Institutes of Health
In office
August 17, 2009 December 19, 2021
President Barack Obama
Donald Trump
Joe Biden
Deputy Lawrence A. Tabak
Preceded by Raynard S. Kington (acting)
Succeeded by Lawrence A. Tabak (acting)
2nd Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute
In office
April 1993 August 1, 2008
President Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Preceded by Michael M. Gottesman (acting)
Succeeded by Alan Edward Guttmacher (acting)
Personal details
Born Francis Sellers Collins
April 14, 1950 (age 74)
Staunton, Virginia, U.S.
Spouse Diane Baker
Children 2
Education University of Virginia (BS)
Yale University (MS, PhD)
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill (MD)
Scientific career
Fields Molecular genetics
Institutions
University of Michigan
National Human Genome Research Institute
National Institutes of Health
Thesis Semiclassical theory of vibrationally inelastic scattering, with application to H+ + H (1974)
Doctoral advisor James Cross
Francis Collins's voice
Duration: 5 minutes and 54 seconds.5:54
Francis Collins speaks on the development of the COVID-19 vaccine
Recorded September 9, 2020
Francis Sellers Collins ForMemRS (born April 14, 1950) is an American physician-scientist who discovered the genes associated with a number of diseases and led the Human Genome Project. He served as director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland, from 17 August 2009 to 19 December 2021, serving under three presidents.[1][2]

Nothing in there about Dr. Collins working in Wuhan on the COVID virus, is there?

So we're back to where we started. Dr. Collins is a prominent example of an evangelical Christian who has no problem at all with evolution, thereby demonstrating that the claim "all scientists who claim evolution is true are God hating pagans" is false. (it's also patently absurd)

[marke]

Can anyone believe the guy who lied about covid's development at Wuhan in order to hide the millions of dollars he made for himself because of covid?

I think you're confusing Dr. Collins with someone else. If you don't have a checkable source for the above, then it's no better than "the moon is made of cheese".

Marke:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other people named Francis Collins, see Francis Collins (disambiguation).
Francis Collins

Official portrait, 2017
Science Advisor to the President
Acting
In office
February 18, 2022 October 3, 2022
President Joe Biden
Preceded by Eric Lander
Succeeded by Arati Prabhakar
16th Director of the National Institutes of Health
In office
August 17, 2009 December 19, 2021
President Barack Obama
Donald Trump
Joe Biden
Deputy Lawrence A. Tabak
Preceded by Raynard S. Kington (acting)
Succeeded by Lawrence A. Tabak (acting)
2nd Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute
In office
April 1993 August 1, 2008
President Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Preceded by Michael M. Gottesman (acting)
Succeeded by Alan Edward Guttmacher (acting)
Personal details
Born Francis Sellers Collins
April 14, 1950 (age 74)
Staunton, Virginia, U.S.
Spouse Diane Baker
Children 2
Education University of Virginia (BS)
Yale University (MS, PhD)
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill (MD)
Scientific career
Fields Molecular genetics
Institutions
University of Michigan
National Human Genome Research Institute
National Institutes of Health
Thesis Semiclassical theory of vibrationally inelastic scattering, with application to H+ + H (1974)
Doctoral advisor James Cross
Francis Collins's voice
Duration: 5 minutes and 54 seconds.5:54
Francis Collins speaks on the development of the COVID-19 vaccine
Recorded September 9, 2020
Francis Sellers Collins ForMemRS (born April 14, 1950) is an American physician-scientist who discovered the genes associated with a number of diseases and led the Human Genome Project. He served as director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland, from 17 August 2009 to 19 December 2021, serving under three presidents.[1][2]

Nothing in there about Dr. Collins working in Wuhan on the COVID virus, is there?

So we're back to where we started. Dr. Collins is a prominent example of an evangelical Christian who has no problem at all with evolution, thereby demonstrating that the claim "all scientists who claim evolution is true are God hating pagans" is false. (it's also patently absurd)

Marke: Collins did not work in Wuhan, he had a part in directing US funding into gain-of-function research at Wuhan.

https://www.thenation.com/article/socie ... ab-theory/

What that quote didnt quite convey was that Garry and several of the papers other coauthors were themselves initially suspicious that SARS-CoV-2 may have emerged from a lab. They communicated their suspicions to Fauci, Collins and others in late January and early February 2020, and what ensued was a period of intense and confidential deliberation about the origin of the virus.

Unredacted records obtained by The Nation and The Intercept offer detailed insights into those confidential deliberations. The documents show that in the early days of the pandemic, Fauci and Collins took part in a series of e-mail exchanges and telephone calls in which several leading virologists expressed concern that SARS-CoV-2 looked potentially "engineered." The participants also contemplated the possibility that laboratory activities had inadvertently led to the creation and release of the virus. The conversations convey a sense of anxious urgency and included speculation about the specific types of laboratory techniques that might have caused the viruss emergence. After roughly a week of debate and data collection, one of the key figures involved in the deliberations characterized the focus of the groups work as follows: "to disprove any type of lab theory." Several of the scientists on the calls and e-mails then went on to write and publish "Proximal Origin." It became one of the best-read papers in the history of science.

[Jose Fly]

Marke: Collins did not work in Wuhan, he had a part in directing US funding into gain-of-function research at Wuhan.

https://www.thenation.com/article/socie ... ab-theory/

What that quote didnt quite convey was that Garry and several of the papers other coauthors were themselves initially suspicious that SARS-CoV-2 may have emerged from a lab. They communicated their suspicions to Fauci, Collins and others in late January and early February 2020, and what ensued was a period of intense and confidential deliberation about the origin of the virus.

Unredacted records obtained by The Nation and The Intercept offer detailed insights into those confidential deliberations. The documents show that in the early days of the pandemic, Fauci and Collins took part in a series of e-mail exchanges and telephone calls in which several leading virologists expressed concern that SARS-CoV-2 looked potentially "engineered." The participants also contemplated the possibility that laboratory activities had inadvertently led to the creation and release of the virus. The conversations convey a sense of anxious urgency and included speculation about the specific types of laboratory techniques that might have caused the viruss emergence. After roughly a week of debate and data collection, one of the key figures involved in the deliberations characterized the focus of the groups work as follows: "to disprove any type of lab theory." Several of the scientists on the calls and e-mails then went on to write and publish "Proximal Origin." It became one of the best-read papers in the history of science.

Nothing in there about Dr. Collins lying about COVID or making millions from it.

Meanwhile the point remains. There are lots of Christians and Christian scientists who have no problem with evolution and are most definitely not "god-hating pagans". If you don't like Dr. Collins, then consider:

The American Scientific Affiliation https://network.asa3.org/page/ASAAbout

The Clergy Letter Project https://www.theclergyletterproject.org/