You And Yours

[connermt]

Christainity says we have 'free will'. Christianity says each person is responsible for their own actions, in regards to one's eternal life heaven/hell.
If both of these concepts are true, why do so many people feel the need to 'butt' into another person's business?
If a person wants to smoke pot in their own home, why do some christians care?
A person wants to go to a stip club, why the need for christians take pictures of them and put on social media to 'shame them'? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13738537/
What's the point here, christians? You don't like the club, don't go to/support it. How does taking their pictures 'save their souls'?
Don't like gay marriage? Don't 'be gay' and/or get married to a gay person. How does not allowing gay marriage to be legal 'save their souls'?
Don't believe in evolution, don't teach it in your churches. How does trying to sneak in ID as 'science' in public schools 'save the souls' of the students?
The list is almost endless.

While it's not about one's 'rights' to protest or not, it's about 'winning souls for jesus!'
How do these activities bring more lost sinners to god?
How does shaming a pot smoker, alcohol drinker, strip club patron, preventing man made rights from a gay person (etc) win these people's souls?

Surely forbidding churches from teaching their beliefs at church would be worth a fight in the US, the vast majority of these things happen independent of church and church activities. Yet, some christians seem to think it's their 'job' to 'butt into' the lives of people, who have no interest in going to, looking at or participating in, a church or church activity.

What's the 'christian logic' here? How does interferring with one's personal life benefit the cause to win souls to god?

[Elijah John]

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[Replying to post 59 by Elijah John]
The Hobby Lobby issue is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I seldom become emotionally involved in the religious beliefs of others.

If a business chooses to alienate a portion of their customer base -- or loses significant employees, that is fine with me. If the business fails as partially a result of their decision, fine. Who cares?

When I was in business (various times) religion was simply NOT an issue -- related to customers or employees. I consider it foolish to involved one's theistic position (positive or negative) in business matters. Others seem to think otherwise.

Can't really argue with that. Would you agree then that no company in a free marketplace should be FORCED to provide a good or a service against it's will or against it's principles? And that no one should be co-erced and hounded out of a job for having previously taken a political stand on any given issue, pro OR con?

[Zzyzx]

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Can't really argue with that. Would you agree then that no company in a free marketplace should be FORCED to provide a good or a service against it's will or against it's principles?

Although I am generally opposed to government / legal system interference with the conduct of business, perhaps SOME control of discrimination is valid.

For instance, I do not support a policy in a business serving the general public that excludes service to non-Caucasians, or Muslims, or Atheists, homosexuals, etc – even if the business has some "principle" against doing so.

And that no one should be co-erced and hounded out of a job for having previously taken a political stand on any given issue, pro OR con?

People lose jobs for all sorts of reasons. Offending the boss or the customers is a common reason. I have fired people for both of those reasons.

A simple political difference isn't adequate grounds for termination in my opinion (nor religious difference, nor racial / cultural difference). However, it someone's promotion of their politics, religion, or culture is disruptive in the workplace – out they go.

When I have been in business it is not with the intention of correcting social norms or problems, but of producing / providing a product competitively. Personal issues are someone else's problem – to be handled on their own time, not on my payroll.

If customers do not like the way I do business they are free to go elsewhere, but they are unlikely to be able to effectively claim discrimination.

[Danmark]

Would you agree then that no company in a free marketplace should be FORCED to provide a good or a service against it's will or against it's principles? And that no one should be co-erced and hounded out of a job for having previously taken a political stand on any given issue, pro OR con?

In a word, Yes; when they serve the public they should be forced to serve all.

1st, there is no such thing as a 'free market' today. Nor should there be. As much as it may offend the principles of a free market purist, we live in a complicated economy that is heavily influenced by government, heavily subsidized by government. Part of the price for having a market at all, one relatively free from terrorism and criminal acts that would destroy that market, is that participants in that market endure some control by government.

The problem may never have arisen if private businesses had not acted so abominably. Sometimes their actions have been purely selfish when they have tried to destroy a truly free market by monopolistic and fraudulent practices.

Other times private enterprise has even acted against its own self interest by denying individuals the right to buy or to employment, or to otherwise participate solely because of personal prejudice. It is right and proper for government to step in and deny private enterprise the right to refuse goods and services and employment to people because of their race, their gender, their age, their ethnicity, their national origin, or their politics.

Why would one want it otherwise?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 59 by Elijah John]

It kinda is the same. It is the free market in action. Lets remove the emotional bonds to the subject briefly to illustrate. Comp A holds a position that customer B disagrees with they have every right not to buy that product. If customer B is a significant source of income company A loses that income for said position. There is no hounding or tyranny involved.


If I make a baby formula and hold the position that women are just sexual i objects only good enough to pop out babies its safe to say I won't sell a lot of formula.

[Goat]

Why should I spend money for a company that is promoting things that are against my interests or against my ethics?

You are free to disagree, and boycott, that is your right. But apparently the Supreme Court is PROTECTING Hobby Lobby's religious freedom, thus what they are doing IS legal, and they are not "trying to get around the law". In the minds of many, religuous freedom IS ethical, and a founding principle.[/quote]

I personally think it is a horrible decision that will come back to bite the Court. For one, it now has shown there is no difference between a closely held corporation and it's owners, and that will bring up the challenge in the other direction, where someone will sue the owners directly for what happens in the company.

It's opening a can of worms in 'what laws can be refused to be followed because of religious belief'.. and the abuse of that.

Just because currently they can doesn't mean they should. .. and when it comes to the application of workers rights, I will go for the worker, almost every time.

[ten10ths]

Christainity says we have 'free will'. Christianity says each person is responsible for their own actions, in regards to one's eternal life heaven/hell.
If both of these concepts are true, why do so many people feel the need to 'butt' into another person's business?
If a person wants to smoke pot in their own home, why do some christians care?
A person wants to go to a stip club, why the need for christians take pictures of them and put on social media to 'shame them'? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13738537/
What's the point here, christians? You don't like the club, don't go to/support it. How does taking their pictures 'save their souls'?
Don't like gay marriage? Don't 'be gay' and/or get married to a gay person. How does not allowing gay marriage to be legal 'save their souls'?
Don't believe in evolution, don't teach it in your churches. How does trying to sneak in ID as 'science' in public schools 'save the souls' of the students?
The list is almost endless.

While it's not about one's 'rights' to protest or not, it's about 'winning souls for jesus!'
How do these activities bring more lost sinners to god?
How does shaming a pot smoker, alcohol drinker, strip club patron, preventing man made rights from a gay person (etc) win these people's souls?

Surely forbidding churches from teaching their beliefs at church would be worth a fight in the US, the vast majority of these things happen independent of church and church activities. Yet, some christians seem to think it's their 'job' to 'butt into' the lives of people, who have no interest in going to, looking at or participating in, a church or church activity.

What's the 'christian logic' here? How does interferring with one's personal life benefit the cause to win souls to god?

Everyone should be holding only themselves responsible for their lives. If you're gay, you will be held responsible for that. If you're not gay, you won't be held responsible for anything 'gay'.
Christians are short sighted in that they want to make everyone else's lives like theirs when their own lives need just as much, if not more, help than the life of the one they're trying 'to save'.
Everyone should simply mind their own business. In other words, I don't care about the Christian God so don't try to hold me to the same standards as yours, dear Christian.
I simply don't care. about your god. I have my own to deal with thank you very much

[dianaiad]

Christainity says we have 'free will'. Christianity says each person is responsible for their own actions, in regards to one's eternal life heaven/hell.
If both of these concepts are true, why do so many people feel the need to 'butt' into another person's business?
If a person wants to smoke pot in their own home, why do some christians care?
A person wants to go to a stip club, why the need for christians take pictures of them and put on social media to 'shame them'? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13738537/
What's the point here, christians? You don't like the club, don't go to/support it. How does taking their pictures 'save their souls'?
Don't like gay marriage? Don't 'be gay' and/or get married to a gay person. How does not allowing gay marriage to be legal 'save their souls'?
Don't believe in evolution, don't teach it in your churches. How does trying to sneak in ID as 'science' in public schools 'save the souls' of the students?
The list is almost endless.

While it's not about one's 'rights' to protest or not, it's about 'winning souls for jesus!'
How do these activities bring more lost sinners to god?
How does shaming a pot smoker, alcohol drinker, strip club patron, preventing man made rights from a gay person (etc) win these people's souls?

Surely forbidding churches from teaching their beliefs at church would be worth a fight in the US, the vast majority of these things happen independent of church and church activities. Yet, some christians seem to think it's their 'job' to 'butt into' the lives of people, who have no interest in going to, looking at or participating in, a church or church activity.

What's the 'christian logic' here? How does interferring with one's personal life benefit the cause to win souls to god?

Everyone should be holding only themselves responsible for their lives. If you're gay, you will be held responsible for that. If you're not gay, you won't be held responsible for anything 'gay'.
Christians are short sighted in that they want to make everyone else's lives like theirs when their own lives need just as much, if not more, help than the life of the one they're trying 'to save'.
Everyone should simply mind their own business. In other words, I don't care about the Christian God so don't try to hold me to the same standards as yours, dear Christian.
I simply don't care. about your god. I have my own to deal with thank you very much

In other words, you do not wish to be forced to participate in any Christian meeting, ritual or event if you don't wish to do so. Fair enough.

That's all I want. I want not to participate in events that violate my religious beliefs. I don't give a good hoot what YOU do...just leave me out of it.

Unfortunately, that's not what's happening, is it?

[Danmark]

In other words, you do not wish to be forced to participate in any Christian meeting, ritual or event if you don't wish to do so. Fair enough.

That's all I want. I want not to participate in events that violate my religious beliefs. I don't give a good hoot what YOU do...just leave me out of it.

Unfortunately, that's not what's happening, is it?

This is a laudable sentiment and one that I expect many good folks agree with. The only problem is when these good beliefs serve to deny others their rights. Perhaps the most famous case in the U.S. on this subject is Brown v. Board of Education which held that racial segregation of children in public schools violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, that "no state shall make or enforce any law which shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Other cases have applied this same Constitutional principle in more specific areas such as public accommodation and service. The problem arises when some group cites their religious beliefs as support for hatred and denial of others' rights in services held out to the public, as well as in criminal action.

For example: "Christian Identity"
http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/chr ... ntity.html

"Perhaps the most chilling manifestation of Identity terrorism can be found in the concept of the Phineas Priesthood, set forth by Richard Kelly Hoskins in his 1990 book Vigilantes of Christendom. The Priesthood is based on the concept of the obscure Biblical character Phinehas, an Israelite who used a spear to slay a "race-mixing" fellow Israelite and the Midianite woman with whom he had sex. Hoskins conjured up the idea of an elite class of "Phineas Priests," self-anointed warriors who would use extreme measures to attack race-mixers, gays, or abortionists, among other targets. Over the years, some have committed crimes using the Phineas Priest label, including a group of about eight who committed bombings and bank robberies in the Spokane, Washington, area in 1996 (four of whom were caught and sentenced to lengthy prison terms). In 2002, two Aryan Nations splinter groups openly adopted Phineas Priest names or symbols."
ibid.

The problem is not just that groups like these justify their crimes and their denials by their 'religious' beliefs, but that any member of any religious group would use their beliefs to deny others rights and public service with less heinous, but equally illegal methods.

There are many paraphrases of Martin Niemöller's famous speech. This is mine:

'First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Mormons, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Mormon.

Then they came for the homosexuals, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a homosexual.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.'

cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

[ten10ths]

Christainity says we have 'free will'. Christianity says each person is responsible for their own actions, in regards to one's eternal life heaven/hell.
If both of these concepts are true, why do so many people feel the need to 'butt' into another person's business?
If a person wants to smoke pot in their own home, why do some christians care?
A person wants to go to a stip club, why the need for christians take pictures of them and put on social media to 'shame them'? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13738537/
What's the point here, christians? You don't like the club, don't go to/support it. How does taking their pictures 'save their souls'?
Don't like gay marriage? Don't 'be gay' and/or get married to a gay person. How does not allowing gay marriage to be legal 'save their souls'?
Don't believe in evolution, don't teach it in your churches. How does trying to sneak in ID as 'science' in public schools 'save the souls' of the students?
The list is almost endless.

While it's not about one's 'rights' to protest or not, it's about 'winning souls for jesus!'
How do these activities bring more lost sinners to god?
How does shaming a pot smoker, alcohol drinker, strip club patron, preventing man made rights from a gay person (etc) win these people's souls?

Surely forbidding churches from teaching their beliefs at church would be worth a fight in the US, the vast majority of these things happen independent of church and church activities. Yet, some christians seem to think it's their 'job' to 'butt into' the lives of people, who have no interest in going to, looking at or participating in, a church or church activity.

What's the 'christian logic' here? How does interferring with one's personal life benefit the cause to win souls to god?

Everyone should be holding only themselves responsible for their lives. If you're gay, you will be held responsible for that. If you're not gay, you won't be held responsible for anything 'gay'.
Christians are short sighted in that they want to make everyone else's lives like theirs when their own lives need just as much, if not more, help than the life of the one they're trying 'to save'.
Everyone should simply mind their own business. In other words, I don't care about the Christian God so don't try to hold me to the same standards as yours, dear Christian.
I simply don't care. about your god. I have my own to deal with thank you very much

In other words, you do not wish to be forced to participate in any Christian meeting, ritual or event if you don't wish to do so. Fair enough.

That's all I want. I want not to participate in events that violate my religious beliefs. I don't give a good hoot what YOU do...just leave me out of it.

Unfortunately, that's not what's happening, is it?

Is it? I don't see anyone forcing you to worship anything you don't want to worship. Maybe you can provide examples of that to us so we can understand your point?
What events are you forced to participate in that violates your religious belief?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 69 by ten10ths]

The pledge of allegiance for one, "One nation under god". Then you have blue laws preventing the purchase of goods and services on Sunday and in some cases not allowing employment. Gay marriage bans. Laws that prevents or harrasses poly lifestyles. Laws preventing Oral and Anal sex.

The list could go on but I think I made my point. Religious zealots in the US of A have crafted and constructed laws to force their religious beliefs on others.