Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

[Revelations won]

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
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Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
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Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
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Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
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Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
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This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
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This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
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To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
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And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
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And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
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This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
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Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
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All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
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I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
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The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
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I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
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Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
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Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�

John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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The same was in the beginning with God.
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All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
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And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�

[myth-one.com]

It tells me that the scriptures are sealed from your understanding...

Well, no, it should "tell" you that you are the only one in all of history, past, present, and future, that has access to true understanding. Which... is quite absurd. LOL! So it should actually tell you quite the opposite, and that you are all alone in your "understanding," and what you say of me is actually true -- at least at the present moment -- of you.

PinSeeker repeated claimed that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment.

Jesus Christ claims that nonbelievers will perish.

I agree with Jesus that nonbelievers will perish.

Speaking about mankind, the serpent stated, "Ye shall not surely die."

The serpent's lie agrees with PinSetter.

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker repeated claimed that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment.

Yes, as does Jesus. This is why PinSeeker claims as he does.

Jesus Christ claims that nonbelievers will perish.

Yes, but He also "claims" that unbelievers consciously exist in said torment in this perished state. PinSeeker only reiterates Jesus Christ's "claims."

I agree with Jesus that nonbelievers will perish.

PinSeeker very much does, also. The difference is, PinSeeker correctly understands what biblical perish-ment... ... death... is.

Speaking about mankind, the serpent stated, "Ye shall not surely die."

Well, speaking to Eve about her and Adam's state of being -- but by extension mankind -- yes, that he assuredly did.

The serpent's lie agrees with PinSetter.

Again, who is this PinSetter dude?

In Genesis 3:4, when the serpent said to Eve, “You will not surely die," he was deceiving Eve into believing the opposite of what God actually told her and Adam in Genesis 2:17, that "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." PinSeeker is not deceived. So he does not agree in any form, shape, or fashion with said serpent. The fact is that Adam and Eve did die in the very day they ate the fruit, just as God -- not the serpent -- said they would. The irony here is, myth-one inadvertently accuses God of lying. Adam and Eve did indeed become dead in their sin in that very day -- and thus such is the natural state of all people unless and until they are born again of the Spirit -- but even so, they were still conscious but banished and sent away -- they departed -- from the Garden of Eden, paradise. The exact same thing will happen in eternity, in the new heaven and new earth. Heaven and earth will once again be one, and those who remain in their sin will go away -- depart -- from the new, eternal paradise, away from life itself and into "outer darkness," where " there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” as Jesus says in Matthew 8 (v.12), precisely because they will be in this state of eternal death for eternity -- they will remain dead in their sin for eternity.

[myth-one.com]

PinSeeker repeated claimed that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment.

Yes, as does Jesus. This is why PinSeeker claims as he does.

Where does Jesus state that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment?

[PinSeeker]

Where does Jesus state that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment?

Matthew 25:41,46, and Luke 16:22b-26. You will disagree in your usual colorful, screaming way, of course, but that matters not. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Where does Jesus state that nonbelievers will exist forever in everlasting torment?

Matthew 25:41,46, and Luke 16:22b-26. You will disagree in your usual colorful, screaming way, of course, but that matters not. Grace and peace to you.

God created man "in His image."

Mankind became more like God when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Mankind was ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever.

So it is crystal clear that mankind does not possess everlasting existence like God and the angels upon reading the first three chapters of the Bible!

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The two testaments of the Bible then define how mankind can gain that Godly characteristic of everlasting life and become equal unto the angels.

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You claim that all mankind will exist forever, I claim they will not. So that's the backdrop. Let's look at your two scriptures:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

After judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

The punishment is their second death, and that punishment is everlasting. That is, those suffering the quick second death will never live again.

So this verse confirms my claim, not yours.

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There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

These verses are the "go to" verses for those like yourself, who believe the immortal soul myth.

Those who believe the myth that man is born with an immortal soul will read these verses as if the event actually occurred. By that means, as soon as Lazarus and the beggar died, they were confronted with the Kingdom of Heaven and hell.

Hey, if one exists forever, they have to exist somewhere, right?

So if this happened, it would confirm that man has an immortal part that goes somewhere immediately upon his physical death.

In actually, these verses comprise a parable or story. We know this because Jesus is speaking in public and He always spoke to the public in parables so they would not understand:

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mark 4:33-34)

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:13)

This story did not actually occur. It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried:

The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Luke 16:22)

We are told that the rich man was buried. The beggar died and was buried also because we are told he was carried into Abraham's bosom. Abraham has long ago died and been buried. Therefore, Abraham's bosom is the grave:

The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife. (Genesis 25:10)

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection. The rich man has been born again as a physical body as his name is not written in the Book of Life. He has been cast into the lake of fire and is about to suffer the second death. Seeing Lazarus and Abraham not in the fire, he screams for Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water so as to cool his tongue. Abraham responds that there is a great gulf between those born again spirits and those born again as physical bodies and cast into hell. That great gulf is death! They cannot communicate in any way because those cast into hell quickly suffer the second death. So how is Abraham able to communicate with the rich man?

Abraham is on the opposite side of the gulf! I suppose in a parable one can say anything. But be assured, it did not actually happen. Soon the gulf separating the rich man from the saved will widen even more, as he dies the second death. The dead know not anything.

So this communication occurs before the rich man suffers the second death. Actually, it is while his death is in progress!

Helping him being impossible, the rich man then asks that Lazarus be sent to his father's house to warn his five brethren about what is happening to him, lest they suffer the second death also. He does this not knowing it is already too late. If he is in hell about to die, his five brethren have died on earth long ago. He has no sense of the time which has passed because he has been dead, or resting. Abraham now reverts back to the time of the rich man's life on earth when he states:

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (Luke 16:29)

But the rich man reasons that if Lazarus was sent from the dead, surely they would believe and repent. Abraham's response is:

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

In actuality, Abraham can make that statement as a fact at that time, as that is exactly what occurred. That is, between the death of Lazarus and the rich man and their resurrection, Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead, and many still did not believe and repent!

[PinSeeker]

God created man "in His image."

Yes, part of which is that we are eternal (future, not past) beings.

Mankind became more like God when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Yes, in the respect that we became awre

Mankind was ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever.

Well, yes, but you apparently have a very limited understanding of this. Fortunately, I can help you with that. Physical life and death, are not the same thing as spiritual life and death. You continue in your inability to differentiate between the two, but it is not rocket science. Please, let me help (again).

So, mankind was ejected from Eden to prevent them from having physical life on earth in their sinful state -- spiritual death, the result of the Fall -- forever. Remember, they DID die in the very day they ate the fruit -- just as God said they would; He did not lie to them, as you would have it -- but they were still physically alive and existing. Because of their Fall from grace, Adam's and Eve's knowledge of good and evil would lead to great frustration, pain, and heartache, just as God said. They would experience happiness and receive good gifts from God along the way, to be sure, but their "knowing evil" meant that they and their offspring -- all of us -- would be capable of continuing to sin, to commit great evil. So God's oracle that Adam would eventually die physically was a judgment but also an act of mercy on God's part... Adam's hard life and ability to rebel against God and do harm to others would be limited -- unless he ate from the Tree of Life. If God had allowed access to the Tree of Life, it would have led to physical immortality and thus an unending, hopeless existence at enmity with -- separated from -- God for Adam and Eve (and all of us). For their own good and the good of all (including us), God would not allow this. To be spiritually dead while remaining physically alive forever could only bring endless suffering, and God, in His mercy, would not allow this.

You claim that all mankind will exist forever, I claim they will not.

Yes, it's unfortunate that you claim what you do. It's a great misunderstanding on your part of God's Word, but certainly not a disqualifier of you being a Christian.

Let's look at your two scriptures.

Yes. Let's.

Regarding Matthew 25:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

After judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

Yes, their spiritual death will be made permanent. But this is after the resurrection, when their spirit have been reunited with their physical bodies. They will be physically existing, but spiritually dead. For eternity.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

The punishment is their second death, and that punishment is everlasting. That is, those suffering the quick second death will never live again.

Spiritually. Yes, that's true. But physically not so much.

So this verse confirms my claim, not yours.

Nope. Saying it does not make it true.

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Regarding Luke 16:

Those who believe the myth that man is born with an immortal soul will read these verses as if the event actually occurred.

It's a parable, myth-one, so no one reads them has an historical event. But they are offered to present a vivid picture of what will occur for those who remain unrepentant and in their unbelief.

Hey, if one exists forever, they have to exist somewhere, right?

Correct. Absolutely. And Jesus shows, in this parable, that such is the case even for the unrepentant and unbelieving. Maybe you'll get it yet.

In actually, these verses comprise a parable or story.

Which is what I just said, and always have.

We know this because Jesus is speaking in public and He always spoke to the public in parables so they would not understand.

Well, we know this, yes, but He spoke in parables because he was presenting an earthly picture so that they would understand cognitively (so they were able to hear it) what they could not literally imagine. Also, Jesus in Mark 4 is referencing what Isaiah wrote (6:9-13) in his prophecy. Isaiah is conveying there -- and thus Jesus is conveying in Mark 4:11-20 (and Matthew 13:11-17 and Luke 8:10-15, also) -- that the unresponsive hearer will find that the message only hardens him to God's gracious purposes. Such is the sovereignty of God. This is the negative side of God's purpose of election towards those on whom He does not have compassion or show mercy.

This story did not actually occur.

No kidding. Really? LOL!!!

It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried.

Myth-one, it will never actually occur, but is a picture depicting a future "reality" of sorts, and thus a warning to those who are presently unrepentant and unbelieving in this life.

.
My goodness.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

God created man "in His image."

Yes, part of which is that we are eternal (future, not past) beings.

Then we have no need to eat of the Tree of Life.

Also, we have no need for God -- as we are equal to God and the angels.

Also, we can close the churches.

[PinSeeker]

Then we have no need to eat of the Tree of Life.

Well, we do, and we will have access to it once again -- believers, anyway -- when Jesus returns, after the resurrection and subsequent judgment, and after the unrepentant are sent away. We hear this from Jesus Himself (through John) in Revelation 22:
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“Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (22:10-15, emphasis mine)

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Also, we have no need for God -- as we are equal to God and the angels.

This is quite the silly statement...

Also, we can close the churches.

...as is this.

You're quite the colorful (pun intended) character, myth-one. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

God created man "in His image."

Yes, part of which is that we are eternal (future, not past) beings.

Mankind was booted from the Garden of Eden to separate them from the Tree of Life so that they could not eat from it and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

So eating of the Tree of Life gains one everlasting life. They are tied together in Genesis 3:22-23.

But you claim that man was created to live forever.


If mankind is created with everlasting life as you claim, then there is no reason for him to eat of the Tree of Life to gain everlasting life!!

[PinSeeker]

Mankind was booted from the Garden of Eden to separate them from the Tree of Life so that they could not eat from it and live forever.

Yes, so he could not eat from it and have PHYSICAL life forever. As I said, this is both of the following:

• a judgment of God -- in the respect that Adam and Eve died spiritually in the very day they ate and no longer had physical access to the Tree of Life and thus became subject to physical death, which is also true of all of us as their progeny

• a mercy of God -- in that Adam and Eve would not have to endure an endless physical life in a sinful world, which is also true of all of us as their progeny.

Come on, myth-one. Come on.

But you claim that man was created to live forever.

Well, again, you have to separate the spiritual from the physical, and to this point you have been unable to do that, either because of obstinance or... great obstinance. Man was originally created to have spiritual AND physical life forever. But because of the Fall, he became subject to physical death; it is appointed to every man to die once, right? Right. That's physical death. Our spirits are eternal, just like God's, as He created us in His image. And one day... at the resurrection... our physical bodies will be reunited with our spirits.

If mankind is created with everlasting life as you claim, then there is no reason for him to eat of the Tree of Life to gain everlasting life!!

The problem is, myth-one, you refuse to understand what my claim is -- or insist on putting it in your own silly context -- or both, even though I've been very clear, and explained thoroughly in very understandable terms.

So eating of the Tree of Life gains one everlasting life. They are tied together in Genesis 3:22-23.

I agree, and after the Fall, Adam and Eve no longer had access to the Tree. But again, they are also tied together in Revelation 22, after Jesus returns and gives believers access to the Tree again, as I said. In this way, everlasting life will be restored. It's just not difficult. You should be able to put 2 and 2 together... unless you just refuse to do so, as you have to this point. Give it a try. May the force be with you.

Grace and peace to you.