Can Christians offer a money-back guarantee?

[unknown soldier]

We've all heard the sales pitch in which a business offers a money-back guarantee to all unsatisfied buyers. The business will tell consumers that they're so confident that purchasers will be pleased with the product, that the business can offer that kind of guarantee. The logic is that if a seller is sure that the seller's product is worth the purchase price, then the buyers will be pleased with that product and will not ask for their money back.

I agree with that logic. If people are confident that what they have to offer will please those who accept the offer, then there is no need to fear that anything exchanged for the offer will be demanded back. They can readily guarantee satisfaction accepting the risk of loss.

Why, then, do Christians not offer a money-back guarantee to any disgruntled person who tithed and donated money to a Christian group or church? It seems reasonable to me that if Christians truly believe that their religion is actually founded on a perfect God, then they would be completely confident that all comers would be pleased.

Maybe the clergy wants to cover itself just in case.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I am skipping over some stuff that is either repetitive or that seems to have gone off the original point.

Was Peter representing God when he struck with his sword and harmed the servant of another man (at the arrest of Christ)? If so, why did Christ rebuke him for doing it? Just because Peter (or anyone else) does something, does not mean that their actions were influenced by holy spirit. If you want to know something about God (and if you want to know God), then you need to look to Christ, who is the image of God, the perfect representation of God.

Did you ever hear of the "Day of Pentecost"? On that day Peter and other disciples supposedly received the Holy Ghost granting them special wisdom and powers. When Peter struck the man with the sword, that was pre-Pentecost--when he had an excuse for acting out of anger. When Peter rebuked Simon the magician, that was post-Pentecost. So Peter had no excuse for acting with anger toward a man who merely sought the same power that Peter allegedly had.

Are you suggesting that holy spirit prevented people from ever sinning again? If that is correct, then why would Paul have had to rebuke Peter to his face when Peter was sinning, and withdrawing from the Gentiles when Jews were around?

The Bible God is angry and intolerant of people who demonstrate the slightest imperfections.

If that were true, God would not have had a plan in place from the start, and sent His Son to give His life, so that we - sinful and imperfect beings - would be reconciled to Him and have life.

You remember that Christ came to save sinners, right?


“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Do you have any evidence that Christ ever said 'give me your money'? Or that He ever taught His disciples to do this? Or does the evidence show that He said to give for free what you receive for free. Give to the one who asks of you, do not turn away from the one in need, etc?

I have no documents in which Christ is quoted as asking for money, and I never said I did. I'm just making a very plausible claim that the common purse he and his disciples kept was funded with donations. If he did say: "Give to the one who asks of you, do not turn away from the one in need...," then he may well have known this command do be good advice because that's how he got his money!

All supposition then? No evidence?

Well, when you supply some evidence that He taught people to take, then we can talk about that. In the meantime, when a person teaches others to give, give, give... and there is no teaching to 'take take take'... then it seems reasonable that one conclude this Teacher taught us to give to others, not demand that others give to us.

See the posts on the next page of this thread. We've documented how Christ told people how to get what they want.

I believe you avoided or missed the point: Christ taught us to give to others (such as those in need), not demand that others give to us. We are to SERVE... not ask others to serve US.

It could have come from the disciples, their own earnings, unsolicited.

It's possible that the common purse was funded that way but unlikely. Jesus and his apostles were too busy telling people how to get things from God to work for a living.

I said disciples (not just the apostles). The women disciples helped support them out of their own means. Luke 8:3



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[koko]

tam,



I have no "failed prayers", dear unknown soldier. And I have always received what I have asked... and what may not yet have happened, I am assured will happen. Ask and you WILL receive; seek and you WILL find; knock and the door WILL be opened.

Sure wish I could say that. Too bad the money back guarantee turned out to be a sham.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I have no "failed prayers", dear unknown soldier. And I have always received what I have asked...

Sorry, but I don't believe that you received anything from God.

I understand that. How could you believe that if you don't believe God even exists?

You won't prove you got what you wanted because you can't prove it. God doesn't exist, so you can't get anything from him. That said, the Bible claims we can get what we want from God as some other members and I have proved on this thread. It's obviously a false promise.

It also completely misses the point.

I did not follow my Lord and serve Him and His Father because I wanted to 'get things' from them. I follow and serve my Lord (who served and loved me first), out of love for Him and God (who again, loved us first). He gave His life for me. He owes me nothing. I owe HIM.

...and what may not yet have happened, I am assured will happen.

You just told me you have received what you asked for, now you say you're still waiting. It's not good form to contradict yourself that way.

It was all in the same sentence, and it is not a contradiction. The promise is ask and you will receive. The promise is not ask and you will receive at that very moment.

Remember also that when Christ wanted and prayed for 'this cup to be taken away from Him', He prayed for this to happen only if POSSIBLE. If NOT possible, then His Father's will be done. If we are following His example, then would we not pray as He prayed?

If you wish to hedge your bet, then yes, always include an escape clause in all your prayers.

It's not hedging a bet. It is as Christ prayed. It is the example that He gave us. He is the One I follow; the One I listen to. Even in the teaching prayer (the our father prayer), He tells us to pray for the Father's will to be done.

Perhaps some are unaware of those things, and perhaps unaware of the following verse as well:

And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:15

That way no matter what the outcome of your prayer, your prayer will be "answered"! Of course, if you really were confident that God existed and that prayer worked, then you wouldn't need to play games like that.

What game?

If you are a disciple of Christ, the Teacher, then you listen to His words, His commands, His teachings.

In any case, my Lord recently reminded me of the following teaching, and I am curious how some of you square away the following with the 'prosperity gospel' (or something similar):

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. Matt 6:19

I'm not sure exactly what that passage is saying, but it appears to contradict Matthew 21:22. Assuming God exists, I see no reason why a person cannot have treasure both here and in heaven, and there should be no requirement to choose between the two.

Well, now - and I mean no offense - but what difference does it make if you see a reason for this or not? Unless you are making up your own god (or believing in the one that men- such as those prosperity preachers - made up, to serve their own interests)?

The God and Father of Christ is as Christ reveals Him.

Not to mention the fact that Christ told others who wanted to be His disciples, that we would have trouble in this world, that we must pick up our cross and carry it. We are promised a cross in this life; not a bed of roses. And of course, He also warned those who would be His followers, that 'the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

If you have trouble, then just pray that the trouble goes away! You said that you always have gotten what you prayed for.

How could I claim to have faith in my Lord, and then refuse to believe Him or accept what He has told me? He never forced me to follow Him or to be His disciple. He stated the cost up front (trouble, persecution, a cross, etc, in this world - though also peace in HIM here and now, as well as later). If I choose to follow Him, then I am accepting that those things come with that.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Clownboat]

I have no "failed prayers", dear unknown soldier. And I have always received what I have asked...

Sorry, but I don't believe that you received anything from God.

I understand that. How could you believe that if you don't believe God even exists?

I'm curious, what is your take on when a Muslim receives something from their god? Do you believe such claims?
What about when a Hindu receives something from their god? Do you find said claims to be credible?

I'm just trying to determine if your beliefs require special treatment from others, and if so, why you would feel that your claims are superior to those receiving things from their gods?

[1213]

….What about this: 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17
Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?...

Ok, in that case, if I am also the temple, then I obey the “rule”.

[tam]

Peace to you,

There simply is no basis for saying that Malachi 3:10 is/was only applicable during Old Testament times or that the other verses were time restricted. If that is so then the Ten Commandments only apply to those times as well. This is just logical. Thus, the alleged time restriction is illogical, baseless, and biblically wrong.

I was thinking along the same lines. If we want to arbitrarily pick and choose scriptures that we assert do not apply to modern Christians, then why not say that murder is fine for Christians? The commandment not to murder only applied to the Jews during the reign of Moses as they wandered about the desert, after all!

When you think about it, that's an excellent reply. According to 1213 these rules and advisories only apply to the Old Testament. If that is true, then thou shalt not kill and the other commandments do not apply to us in the modern era as well. This means we have permission to commit every manner of evil with impunity and with the expectation of some heavenly reward despite all such evils. If that was the case then people need not bother with church, with devotions, with holidays, or with any other manner of worship. While I am emphatically not trying to denigrate anyone, it is obvious that 1213 just could not be more wrong.

When asked, Christ taught that the two most important commandments are to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul... and to love your neighbor as yourself. That the rest of the commandments hang upon these two. Christ also taught us to love our enemies - bless and do not curse, forgive, show mercy, etc. He also taught His disciples to love one another as He loved us.

Where in any of that is there room to commit murder, adultery, bearing false witness, etc? Where is there permission in any of this to commit every manner of evil with impunity?

The law of God - from the beginning - is love. God is love. What else would the law that comes from Him be, except love?

Love also covers over a multitude of sins, and there is NO law AGAINST love (Galatians 5:22, 23).

See also Galatians 5:18 (referring to the law of Moses).


(Not to mention the fact that the law covenant, the old covenant with the law of Moses and the (man-made) Temple and priesthood, was between God and Israel. That contract cannot be binding to anyone not a party to it. People of all nations are invited to be part of the new covenant, mediated by Christ, and the law (love) is written upon the heart...not upon a stone tablet).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[koko]

Peace to you

When asked, Christ taught that the two most important commandments are to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul... and to love your neighbor as yourself. That the rest of the commandments hang upon these two. Christ also taught us to love our enemies - bless and do not curse, forgive, show mercy, etc. He also taught His disciples to love one another as He loved us.

Where in any of that is there room to commit murder, adultery, bearing false witness, etc? Where is there permission in any of this to commit every manner of evil with impunity?

The law of God - from the beginning - is love. God is love. What else would the law that comes from Him be, except love?

Love also covers over a multitude of sins, and there is NO law AGAINST love (Galatians 5:22, 23).

See also Galatians 5:18 (referring to the law of Moses).


(Not to mention the fact that the law covenant, the old covenant with the law of Moses and the (man-made) Temple and priesthood, was between God and Israel. That contract cannot be binding to anyone not a party to it. People of all nations are invited to be part of the new covenant, mediated by Christ, and the law (love) is written upon the heart...not upon a stone tablet).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you, now and forever, as well.

Re love, no dispute from me in that regard. The problem is this god's selectivity. Your prayers are all answered (and kudos to you for that), but mine never were as I have never known one day of good health and prosperity in my many years.

As for the old covenant being exclusively with Israel, that is true. However, the new one is extended to all Christians because they are no longer Gentiles as shown in Ephesians 2:11 et seq, 3:6 + Galatians 3:7-29.

[DavidLeon]

Moses didn't exist long before the law was done away with. The Law shouldn't be disregarded but it is no longer in effect. No one is under the law. It served it's purpose until the coming of Christ. (Galatians 3:19-24; Romans 3:20; 10:4)

Paul should have informed Jesus about this fact:

Matthew 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

That's the magic of the Bible. It's inconstancy allows one to use it to support apposing views based simply on personal preference. Prefer salvation by faith, read John. Rather work for it, turn to the synoptics.


Tcg

Thanks for the response, Tcg. Matthew 5:18 isn't really complete without verse 17 is it? Both verses read: "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place."

Faith and works are aspects that demonstrate a desire or compatibility for salvation. There is no faith or works that entitle one to salvation because salvation is by the grace, i.e. undeserved kindness of Jehovah God.

[unknown soldier]

How could you believe that if you don't believe God even exists?

Even if I did believe God exists I would hope that I wouldn't believe outlandish claims on very weak evidence. You believe God exists, but would you believe I can levitate based on my word only? I know that prayer doesn't work not because I'm an atheist but because I've seen prayer fail many times.

And how do Christians respond to prayer's failures? They continue to believe it works!

I did not follow my Lord and serve Him and His Father because I wanted to 'get things' from them. I follow and serve my Lord (who served and loved me first), out of love for Him and God (who again, loved us first). He gave His life for me. He owes me nothing. I owe HIM.

That kind of blind allegiance to a god led to the events of September 11. And if Jesus ever really was crucified it had nothing to do with you. To say he died for you makes about as much sense as to say Socrates died for me.

It was all in the same sentence, and it is not a contradiction. The promise is ask and you will receive. The promise is not ask and you will receive at that very moment.

Earlier you stated:

And I have always received what I have asked...

If you received (past tense) what you have prayed for, then you already have it. To say you're still waiting for some of it is a contradiction.

It's not hedging a bet. It is as Christ prayed.

My point is that the way you judge the efficacy of prayer, failures are indistinguishable from successes because you have from the outset built in a way to explain away failure.

Perhaps some are unaware of those things, and perhaps unaware of the following verse as well:

And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:15

Good example of bet hedging! By saying we must ask "according to his will" allows failures to be explained away as not being his will.

I've often wondered why the starving kids' prayers go unanswered. It must be God's will that they starve.

So Tam, I promise to give you anything you ask for--if I really want to give you what you ask for.

What game?

Your game of building in escape clauses into the way you judge prayer. The way you judge prayer, it cannot fail.

Well, now - and I mean no offense - but what difference does it make if you see a reason for this or not?

It's called "common sense." A perfect God would not make us wait suffering when he knows full well we need and want things right away.

How could I claim to have faith in my Lord, and then refuse to believe Him or accept what He has told me? He never forced me to follow Him or to be His disciple. He stated the cost up front (trouble, persecution, a cross, etc, in this world - though also peace in HIM here and now, as well as later). If I choose to follow Him, then I am accepting that those things come with that.

I don't see how any of this is addressing my point that if you really have received what you have prayed for, then I'm very puzzled why you're troubled in any way.

If that were true, God would not have had a plan in place from the start, and sent His Son to give His life, so that we - sinful and imperfect beings - would be reconciled to Him and have life.

I have a better plan--just let people live in paradise from the start. And never hurt anybody for eating fruit especially when a snake I created talked them into it.

You remember that Christ came to save sinners, right?

Yes, that's what I've been told, but sinners don't look very saved to me.

All supposition then? No evidence?

That's correct. There is no evidence at all for where the funds in the common purse came from. In fact, there's no evidence for a purse, for Judas, or Christ himself. Unless, of course, you call the word of anonymous writers in a first-century religious cult "evidence."

If you Christians ever come up with good evidence, then I'll see what I can do with it.

I believe you avoided or missed the point: Christ taught us to give to others (such as those in need), not demand that others give to us. We are to SERVE... not ask others to serve US.

Where in the world did you get this? I didn't say anything about demanding that other people give to us--I documented how the gospel story promises us that Christ will grant our prayer requests.

Are you suggesting that holy spirit prevented people from ever sinning again? If that is correct, then why would Paul have had to rebuke Peter to his face when Peter was sinning, and withdrawing from the Gentiles when Jews were around?

No! I see that the Holy Ghost isn't very good at preventing people from sinning. It seems more probable to me that the Holy Ghost is no more real than Casper the Friendly Ghost.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you

When asked, Christ taught that the two most important commandments are to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul... and to love your neighbor as yourself. That the rest of the commandments hang upon these two. Christ also taught us to love our enemies - bless and do not curse, forgive, show mercy, etc. He also taught His disciples to love one another as He loved us.

Where in any of that is there room to commit murder, adultery, bearing false witness, etc? Where is there permission in any of this to commit every manner of evil with impunity?

The law of God - from the beginning - is love. God is love. What else would the law that comes from Him be, except love?

Love also covers over a multitude of sins, and there is NO law AGAINST love (Galatians 5:22, 23).

See also Galatians 5:18 (referring to the law of Moses).


(Not to mention the fact that the law covenant, the old covenant with the law of Moses and the (man-made) Temple and priesthood, was between God and Israel. That contract cannot be binding to anyone not a party to it. People of all nations are invited to be part of the new covenant, mediated by Christ, and the law (love) is written upon the heart...not upon a stone tablet).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you, now and forever, as well.

Thank you, dear koko!

Re love, no dispute from me in that regard.

I'm glad.

The problem is this god's selectivity.

On this, I must disagree. The 'problem' is man's selectivity. In what he hears (or chooses to hear and ignore), in what he believes (or chooses to believe), in who (or what) he chooses to follow and obey (religion and men instead of Christ and God), in what he teaches his children (to believe, to follow, to obey).

There are what, 2 billion people on the planet who profess to be Christian? Many are not.

(I do not know how any Christian can deny that, when Christ said Himself, "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ )

I'm not judging. I am just pointing that out.

Religion and all its sects and denominations - these are not from Christ. That does not mean that no one in them belongs to Christ, or that no one in them is seeking Him (but have been misled)... but He is calling to His people,

"Come out of her, my people!"

"Stop touching the unclean thing and I will take you in!"



**

As for prayer, there are conditions to prayers even being HEARD. God (the Father of Christ) does not hear all prayers, and He is under no obligation TO hear them all. Some are not praying to Him. Some are not praying according to His will. Some are not doing what He said, in order to be heard or received. Because unless one is coming through Christ ("No one comes to the Father except through the Son), how can one expect to be received or heard? Then there is also Isaiah 58 (one of my favorites given to Israel).

Your prayers are all answered (and kudos to you for that), but mine never were as I have never known one day of good health and prosperity in my many years.

Not kudos to me, dear koko, but rather to my Lord (Jaheshua) and to my God (JAH). I am no one, and I do not deserve anything.

But look at the teaching prayer that Christ gave to Israel. What are they meant to be praying for (for themselves) other than their daily bread (which is not food for the body, because Christ said that we do not have to pray for such things. Our daily bread is the true manna from heaven - Christ Jaheshua, the true bread from heaven, his flesh and his blood. Israel ate the manna in the desert daily. Christ is the TRUE manna from heaven; He is our daily bread.)

I asked my Father in heaven to lead me wherever He wanted me to be (no matter how long that took), and I asked to know what is true, HIS truth. Not my truth (what I might want to be true), not religious truth (what religion says is true), not man's truth (what man says is true)... but God's truth. No matter what that truth might be. God led me to His Son (who is also His Truth). I also asked for ears to hear and received them. I did not put a time limit on anything; I just continued to follow and obey Christ as best as I could in the meantime.

Now, someone is going to read this and think 'oh, she's bragging', but that is not it at all. It is just that I know the promise is true, because my Lord is true. Ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will find. And this promise as well:

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”



**


I have seen where you have spoken a bit about your poor health, and I am sorry for your health issues, that is hard. I have brothers/sisters in Christ with physical (even severe) health issues also. Christian and non-Christian alike suffer from the ailments of the flesh. Because sin and death are IN these bodies, (where sin = error: illness, disease, infections, etc.) That is part of this world, and the flesh is an enemy. We are not yet in the new body (the white robe which has no sin or death in it, but only LIFE in it). And of course there is the Adversary's accusation against us (as with Job): that skin on behalf of skin, a man will give everything he has to save his own life, even 'curse God and die'. Remember that he is a roaring lion, seeking to devour. He will try everything he can to cause a person to give up their faith.

And if religion is promising prosperity (etc) in this world... well, I mean... that is NOT what Christ promised. That is not even what Christ had. He had suffering, persecution, betrayal, rejection, hate, 'no place to lay his head', and he was even put to death. How in the world could a religion be speaking with authority from Christ, if it teaches the opposite of what Christ teaches, making promises that are the opposite of what Christ said would come with being His disciple? What is the purpose then of religion EXCEPT to cause people to turn away from Christ, from God - either by preventing one from coming to and knowing the Truth (Christ) and God to begin with... and/or... by causing one to become disillusioned and give up their faith?


Please know that I am not saying what does or does not apply to you (or to anyone else reading), and I am not judging. But please also know that as long as the door is yet open (and it is), it is not too late to come to Christ. To seek HIM. Keep seeking, keep knocking and the door WILL be open.


**

I guess the only other thing I might add is that it is not about us. It is about Christ. If we are serving because we want to get things in this world, then it seems to me that we are just leaving room for the Adversary to trip us up. But if we are serving out of love for Christ (and His Father), putting them first even before ourselves and our own lives and our own will and desires, well... love never fails.



May anyone wishing them be given ears to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May the one who hears, say "Come!" And may anyone thirsting and anyone wishing, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"


(which water is holy spirit, poured out from the LIFE - Christ Jaheshua - as the Father has given to Him without end)



Peace again to you dear koko, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ (Jaheshua),
tammy