Simone Vs. Dawkins

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Nick_A
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Simone Vs. Dawkins

Post #1

Post by Nick_A »

How do we see the universe in perspective? Richard Dawkins' perspective sees it as chaos. Simone Weil' perspective,sees it as perfect order. What does your perspective reveal to you?
The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.-- Richard Dawkins, "God's Utility Function," published in Scientific American (November, 1995), p. 85


“The sea is not less beautiful to our eye because we know that sometimes ships sink in it. On the contrary, it is more beautiful still. If the sea modified the movement of its waves to spare a boat, it would be a being possessing discernment and choice, and not this fluid that is perfectly obedient to all external pressures. It is this perfect obedience that is its beauty.”

“All the horrors that are produced in this world are like the folds imprinted on the waves by gravity. This is why they contain beauty. Sometimes a poem, like the Iliad, renders this beauty.”

“Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things. Certain actions become impossible for him, while others happen through him, sometimes despite him.”

Excerpt from: Thoughts without order concerning the love of God, in an essay entitled L'amour de Dieu et le malheur (The Love of God and affliction). Simone Weil

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QED
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Post #61

Post by QED »

I want to haul this back to post #15 from which point onwards I see nothing that can be built on to dent Nick_A's confidence.
Nick_A wrote:
QED wrote:Without knowing the wider context for the existence of the observable universe we are unable to draw safe inferences from the restricted portion we see. It's not that "the appearance of order is only imagination" -- the order is real, but order need not necessarily imply deliberate ordering.
This would mean that the laws that produce order occur by accident. I can't see how this is possible
This is generally the big confidence booster for supporters of all things ID. It's such an old chestnut that the Psalmist says in the Bible; "Only a fool says in his heart there is no God". The foolishness being the ability to look out upon an ordered universe (cosmos) and not see an organising hand behind it all.

For many people this seems to be an instinctive foundation upon which a great many ideas are built. However, the Weak Anthropic Principle reminds us that in a large enough space of possibilities there can be "impossible looking" regions. Here I'm cutting it down to basics to get the point over as succinctly as possible, but in this way, the "accident" is possible because (perhaps) our universe is a result of a repetitive process that results in many different kinds of universe. Without understanding the "big picture" behind the mechanics of the process (and theist and non-theist alike tend to agree on our being the result some kind of process) we are in no position to judge how likely it is that we should find ourselves in such an ordered world.

Of course the WAP proves nothing about the existence or non-existence of ordering entities, except that it does prove that without knowledge of the context for our universe, we cannot infer anything from the appearance of order... especially not it's context!

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Post #62

Post by Nick_A »

Rathpig

The funny thing is Nick, you refuse to answer anything that shows the gap in your mystical-perspective armor. You by necessity must deny science because science doesn't operate on the level of emotional assumption. You give lip-service to science as if you would be open-minded, but the logical conclusion of you mystic-view precludes the scientific method.
Have you ever considered that the drive to "understand" our universe is partially an emotional need? For some reason you are trying to create a divide between faith and reason that doesn't exist. other than through secular conditioning.
To return to the OP, you mention Dawkins in contrast to Weil. The only fault one could ever find in Dawkins' approach is that he does not embrace assumed "facts" not in evidence. For your perspective, Nick, you call this "denial". How curious. You assert an entire ethereal universe without the slightest support, and then attack those who dare question this construct as "deniers".
No. Dawkins takes a moral position based on emotional experience. He wrote:
The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference
What appears as pitiless indifference promoting a negative emotional response is really the result of a lack of perspective. You have failed to suggest that you even know what relative perspective means.
However, you refuse to even discuss why you yourself deny Harry Potter or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Doesn't this make you a "denier"? And isn't the real discussion merely a matter of scale?
While there is no contradiction between Christianity and Magick, and a logical case can be made for both, it cannot be done for our favorite flying noodle. I know the theoretical basis for Christianity and magick and their union from the point of view of laws is obvious. However, until somepone provides the logical theoretical basis for this flying pasta and or the ancient emotional need for it, I don't believe it.

You seem to want to deny what you have not experienced first and ask questions later while I ask questions without first needing to deny as part of an emotional mindset.
Which "God" is the true God? Are all god-constructs equal incarnation as the deists often propose? Isn't any other approach you take merely splitting hairs over another's level of denial versus your own?
The true God or God-head is the ONE within which all others reside.
Are you not an atheist as well, Nick? Which gods do you deny?
Not believing is not the same as denying. I don't believe in the false god's of the Great Beast being able to satisfy the need for meaning that initiates with the true God.

Yet it would be naive to deny one of the Beasts gods such as money for example that people sacrifice themselves for as non-existent.
Now least you forget while misusing the term "logic", logic is merely a methodology of inquiry. The term refers to a systematic, non-contradictory approach to sets of proposals. It isn't a magical term, and it is in no way applicable to this news story.
Of course it applies. I can give a very logical argument as to why she responded appropriately to an assault on her self esteem which is a valued attribute in our culture providing part of its cultural perspective.. Since nothing matters but feeling good, logic, and direct scientific proofs, she should be applauded for her actions from our logical earthy perspective rather than condemned now as she is by many.

Beto

Post #63

Post by Beto »

Nick_A wrote:I accept this definition of neo-Darwinism

http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Neo-Darwinism
Neo-Darwinism holds that the processes responsible for small-scale micro-evolutionary changes can be extrapolated indefinitely to produce large-scale macro-evolutionary changes leading to major innovations in form. Neo-Darwinism is also called the Modern Synthesis (as such, it synthesizes or brings together classical Darwinism with modern genetic theory).
You "accept" that one? And here I thought you didn't just pick any old definition that suits your mindset, regardless of source or credibility. Personally, I regard "neo-darwinism" in slightly more broad terms, and I think it's as dynamic as the theory of evolution itself, since it basically refers to any ideas (current or future corrections) about evolutionary mechanisms, developed from (hence "neo") Charles Darwin's original theory of evolution by natural selection.

But I can't say I totally dislike that definition.
Nick_A wrote:I simply don't believe it.
It is simple not to believe. To understand it, and to realize "belief" has nothing to do with the matter, is considerably harder.
Nick_A wrote:Why such accidental influences would create a lion, and elk, and grass so that the elk would eat the grass and the lion would eat the elk seems absurd.
It does, doesn't it? That's why they're not accidental or random. But I don't know why I even bother to touch this point, since this straw man is grafted to your skin by now.

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Post #64

Post by Nick_A »

Beto

All huffing and puffing and strawmen aside, it still doesn't make sense.

What you are suggesting is the equivalent of a plane flying overhead and dropping a variety of mechanical parts that hit the ground and bounce at random.

After all the bouncing is said and done these independent parts have bounced in such a way that they integrated into a functioning car. Lots of luck on that one.

You can make a case for random selection producing favorable adaptation for a part of organic life. But to assume all the parts adapted in such a way that together they function as a living machine transforming substances is really absurd.

Its like in chess when your opponent announces mate in three. You look at the board and discover it. He sees it. No huffing and puffing will change it. So the reasonable thing to do is resign with a growl and start over. Hopefully at some point neo-Darwinism will come to see that it is defending a lost position as it pertains to the origin and conscious intent of the living machine. Then perhaps we can begin to get someplace.

Beto

Post #65

Post by Beto »

Nick_A wrote:Beto

All huffing and puffing and strawmen aside, it still doesn't make sense.
If the other forum members are willing to indulge you in debate with "logical fallacies aside", than by all means, be my guest. I'm no longer inclined to do so.

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Post #66

Post by Nick_A »

Beto wrote:
Nick_A wrote:Beto

All huffing and puffing and strawmen aside, it still doesn't make sense.
If the other forum members are willing to indulge you in debate with "logical fallacies aside", than by all means, be my guest. I'm no longer inclined to do so.
This is of course your choice and encouraged by Mr. Great Beast himself. However we all have choices and one such choice is to decide if we prefer to understand at the expense of our self esteem or to seek the rewards from justifying what furthres our self esteem.

You've chosen your option and I've chosen mine.

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Post #67

Post by bernee51 »

Nick_A wrote:
Close Nick - oh so close. From whence does 'I am' manifest? What is the source of 'I-thought'?.
The fact that you have one body and one name. The illusion of inner unity is supported by this reality.
You answer does not relate at all to "What is the source of 'I-thought'." Surely, given you access to 'inner empiricism' you must understand that the 'body' and 'name' are merely objects attached to a sense of 'I-ness' and cannot be the source.

Are you SURE you understand all this reading you are doing around the topic. Your answer certainly doesn't imply any subjective experience.
Nick_A wrote:
This is essentially vipassana, insight meditation. The Buddha laid out the method 2500+ years ago. Why not call it what it is instead of this misnomer of 'inner empiricism'?
Call it what you like but it is all "Know Thyself" in one form or another.
You can shout "know thyself' from the rooftops and take out a full page advertisement in the NYT it will not help you achieve it. You gotta do the work Nick. What work are you doing?
Nick_A wrote:
What is required for him is a big step into the trans-rational (metaphysically speaking). To adopt and understand integral-aperspecivalism (i.e. vision-logic). To understand the evolutionary nature of the development of consciousness and the stages through which it goes. Spiral Dynamics is a good place to start.
You could really be a text book example of the ability to express the essence of the process artistically described in this following old Russian/Polish expression: "Pouring from the empty into the void."
What a beautiful side-step - or is it a 'denial'.

If you don't understand why not have the humility to ask. If you do understand why not address the issues rather than resort to ad hominems. It is unbecoming.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #68

Post by Nick_A »

Bernee
You answer does not relate at all to "What is the source of 'I-thought'." Surely, given you access to 'inner empiricism' you must understand that the 'body' and 'name' are merely objects attached to a sense of 'I-ness' and cannot be the source.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question. Most people even though having read and even experienced to a degree that they are a plurality, cannot retain the concept and consider themselves as inner unity.

Even though we are a plurality, the illusion of inner unity is sustained by our experience of one body and our one name.

Apparently you didn't mean this. Perhaps you mean that when i say i am doing this or that, what is the source of this i? If this is what you mean the question related to inner empiricism becomes which i is being referred to being that my existence is as a plurality. T

The source of an i can be related to the intellect, emotional, and physical parts of ourselves and often an expression of conditioned memory provoking a conditioned reaction. Part of advanced self knowledge is being able to consciously observe how i's arise and become replaced by others. This requires an "I" cap[able of observing i's

As i said before, i don't like being too specific on technique. The reason is that when a person adopts them as part of their ego, it can give harmful results. There is enough negativity here already. It wouldn't be fair to discuss such things in such an environment.
If you don't understand why not have the humility to ask. If you do understand why not address the issues rather than resort to ad hominems. It is unbecoming.
And this from the master of the ad homs! :)

Granted I'm not well read on integral-aperspectival. I know Ken Wilber has a model of qualities of consciousness and perspective. but again concepts are not the same as consciousness. If you want to post a thread on it, I'll join in but my path explains consciousness sufficiently for me which is not to say that others may not come to the same conclusions from a different direction.

Simone's conscious perception of the sea existing in "NOW" and the result of universal laws as witnessed from above I imagine could be seen as an integral structure but I still prefer my path that stresses the reality of man as as plurality. Otherwise conceptions of conscioousness lead to puffed up egotism which is incapable of the conscious experience of the vertical reality within which the higher and lower are connected.

As I said before, being too caught up in I without the details of "am" is Luciferic IMO

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Post #69

Post by bernee51 »

Nick_A wrote:
You answer does not relate at all to "What is the source of 'I-thought'." Surely, given you access to 'inner empiricism' you must understand that the 'body' and 'name' are merely objects attached to a sense of 'I-ness' and cannot be the source.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question. Most people even though having read and even experienced to a degree that they are a plurality, cannot retain the concept and consider themselves as inner unity.

Even though we are a plurality, the illusion of inner unity is sustained by our experience of one body and our one name.
We seem poles apart. The pluralilty is an illusion. It is made up of 'i' and all its attached objects. The "I" is a unity.
Nick_A wrote: Apparently you didn't mean this. Perhaps you mean that when i say i am doing this or that, what is the source of this i?
Not the source of 'i' but the source of 'I'. 'i' is the ego which is a product of the mind and a link between the body and 'I'.
Nick_A wrote:If this is what you mean the question related to inner empiricism becomes which i is being referred to being that my existence is as a plurality.

The source of an i can be related to the intellect, emotional, and physical parts of ourselves and often an expression of conditioned memory provoking a conditioned reaction. Part of advanced self knowledge is being able to consciously observe how i's arise and become replaced by others. This requires an "I" capable of observing i's
Indeed it does.
Nick_A wrote: As i said before, i don't like being too specific on technique. The reason is that when a person adopts them as part of their ego, it can give harmful results. There is enough negativity here already. It wouldn't be fair to discuss such things in such an environment.
Then send me a PM - I AM interested - and quite capable in self enquiry.
Nick_A wrote:
If you don't understand why not have the humility to ask. If you do understand why not address the issues rather than resort to ad hominems. It is unbecoming.
And this from the master of the ad homs! :)
Really??? If I have ad hom{ed} you I would appreciate being told. I feel I have only attacked your arguments and how they reflect on what appears to be a level of development of consciousness.
Nick_A wrote: Granted I'm not well read on integral-aperspectival. I know Ken Wilber has a model of qualities of consciousness and perspective. but again concepts are not the same as consciousness.
Wilber has also done an incredible amount of getting to "know thyself".
Nick_A wrote: Simone's conscious perception of the sea existing in "NOW" and the result of universal laws as witnessed from above I imagine could be seen as an integral structure but I still prefer my path that stresses the reality of man as as plurality.
I would be interested to know your rationale for the reality of man as a plurality. As stated above - to me (and many of the great sages) plurality is an illusion. The reality is the source of 'I-thought" - Atman.
Nick_A wrote: As I said before, being too caught up in I without the details of "am" is Luciferic IMO
Then we are at odds. If anything is 'Luciferic" (if I take your meaning correctly) i.e. leading to ignorance and illusion it is the details attached to "I" which can only attach through the 'am'
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #70

Post by Nick_A »

Bernee

This idea of man as a plurality is essentially Buddhism as well. There is no "I" in Buddhism but rather expressions of small i's that don't have to exist and when gone Buddhist re-birth on the wheel of samsara is no longer necessary.

Christendom in contrast asserts this ready made soul that is either rewarded or punished in accordance with how the collective physical presence reacts to assorted dictates.

My path begins like Buddhism but asserts that the soul of man exists within as a seed with the potential "to be" and the process referring to the development of the soul is conscious evolution in contrast to the mechanical evolution that produces the integrated living machine we know of as organic life on earth. "I" is our potential existing in us now in a rudimentary form. We do sometimes experience moments of its awakening or beginning "to be."

Many i's are products of egotism while others are not. Part of inner empiricism is separating the "wheat from the tares" or the truth from the imagined within oneself.

In order "to be" one must become "I am." As we are, I am" doesn't exist for us but remember that I assert this inner unity as man's conscious evolutionary potential.

As you know there is a thread going on here about belief in god being logical. Nothing can come from it because of the negativity and a lot of conclusions just further emotional denial. A lot of what I do is based on the same concepts of impartial attention that is normal for Buddhism and Karma yoga. It doesn't do any good trying to explain such things where "provitz disease" is rampant.

I subscribe to Parabola magazine. IMO it is the best magazine of its kind on the market.

http://www.parabola.org/

The current issue is on "God." If you look at the table of contents you will see the depth and diversity of the approach. Yes that is Simone in the middle. The purpose in this issue is to provide food for thought in relation to understanding rather then furthering blind denial as so often asserts itself here.

The reader's forum there is new and dead. I hope to help develop it gradually. It would invite a sharing based on the need to become able to understand as opposed to furthering denial.

That is the kind of environment within which techniques could be shared and the deeper questions inspired by any one of this issue's topics could be explored without concern for pettiness and ridicule. Parabola isn't that expensive for what one gets from it which is a dedication to "quality" blended with humility all too rare in modern western culture

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