Why be an atheist if you can be an agnostic?

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QED
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Why be an atheist if you can be an agnostic?

Post #1

Post by QED »

In the topic titled Why would God be interested in free lunches?
Harvey asks us:
harvey1 wrote:What else is left once we've looked at every known possibility and we see this deep prejudice against a God solution? Folks, it's not as if everyone on earth is saying you must believe God exists. Rather, the issue is why be an atheist if you can be an agnostic?
This is easy for me to answer; I see too much Irony and Pathos in the world for it to be under the direction of the entity worshipped by the faithful. Their very faith is testimony to the unequivocal existence of such a being who's existence is thoroughly ambiguous when all attempts to reason his existence are carefully considered. Now I agree that this much might indeed lead us to agnosticism but then there is plenty to tip this extremely fine balance in my view.

Principally I understand evolution by natural selection to be the force for the apparent design of all known life. Within this mechanism there is no latitude for divine whim or fancy, the "products" will be restricted to what is practical in the widest possible context taking into account a near infinite number of contingent events spanning billions of years. While some might suggest that God enjoys a challenge, it strikes me as absurd to imagine that everything could be rigged so as to eventually result in a nice race of people who perfectly reflect God's image. The methods and imperatives for reaching this exalted state are just too bloody for the ends to be justified by the means in my opinion.

This is why I mention Irony and Pathos because the ungodly ordeals faced by all living things including man are often too awful to permit the kind of God commonly posited. After all, if I were looking for somewhere peaceful to go on holiday shouldn't I be safe going to the "Holy Lands"? If we look at the predictions of a universe under God's direction versus those of a universe which is self-extracting then I can see a clear indication that it is of the latter in nature.

= Atheism.

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Post #71

Post by skepticFromTX »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:SkepticFromTX,
By my reckoning, the circumstantial evidence that God exists is far outweighed by the circumstantial evidence that God does not exist.
What evidence is that?
On the one hand:
That a physical quantity known as the fine structure constant has precisely the value to allow the formation of the carbon compounds essential to life, is taken by many people to be evidence that an "Intelligent Designer" gave it its particular value.

But on the other hand:
The Spanish Inquisition, The Children's Crusade, The Salem Witch Trials, 9/11, last years tsunami, and the story I saw earlier this year on the late news about an infant who was covered with cigarette burns and beaten to death by it's mothers boyfriend, all contribute to my reckoning that God does not exist.

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Post #72

Post by skepticFromTX »

Galphanore: "No, it (athiesm) is the starting point. If you consider Atheism the conclusion then you literally have nothing."

Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying.

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Post #73

Post by Galphanore »

skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "No, it (athiesm) is the starting point. If you consider Atheism the conclusion then you literally have nothing."

Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying.
Atheism is the lack of belief in god, so it is not actually something you can base your life around. If the only thing you believe is that you don't believe then you hold no beliefs, you have nothing, you're essentially a nihilist. So you use atheism as the starting point, and then work out a system of beliefs from there, such as secular humanism. Beliefs that lead to a better life without needing a crazy old man in the sky.
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Post #74

Post by skepticFromTX »

Galphanore: "Atheism is the lack of belief in god, so it is not actually something you can base your life around."

With all due respect...

You seem to be pretty sure of your definition of athiesm.
Me, I'd say that athiesm is just a particular way of looking at the world. One that doesn't happen to require that the world is a thing created, but rather came about due to purely natural physical processes.

"If the only thing you believe is that you don't believe then you hold no beliefs, you have nothing, you're essentially a nihilist."
Now you're starting to sound like Billy Graham.

"So you use atheism as the starting point, and then work out a system of beliefs from there, such as secular humanism. Beliefs that lead to a better life without needing a crazy old man in the sky."

My starting point was Catholic School. My athiesm is a product of years of life experience, not something I studied for years until I learned it real good and now I are one. And by the way, I have beliefs. It's just that belief in God isn't one of them.

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Post #75

Post by Galphanore »

skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "Atheism is the lack of belief in god, so it is not actually something you can base your life around."

With all due respect...

You seem to be pretty sure of your definition of athiesm.
Me, I'd say that athiesm is just a particular way of looking at the world. One that doesn't happen to require that the world is a thing created, but rather came about due to purely natural physical processes.

"If the only thing you believe is that you don't believe then you hold no beliefs, you have nothing, you're essentially a nihilist."
Now you're starting to sound like Billy Graham.

"So you use atheism as the starting point, and then work out a system of beliefs from there, such as secular humanism. Beliefs that lead to a better life without needing a crazy old man in the sky."

My starting point was Catholic School. My athiesm is a product of years of life experience, not something I studied for years until I learned it real good and now I are one. And by the way, I have beliefs. It's just that belief in God isn't one of them.
I was a Catholic too, btw. My point is that you have those beliefs, but those beliefs are not atheism. Atheism is just a lack of belief in god, that's what it is. The rest of your beliefs are just personal beliefs with varyingly degrees of relation to your atheism. There are people who hold none of the beliefs that you do, not a single one, and yet are still atheists. That would not be so if all your beliefs were atheism.
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Post #76

Post by skepticFromTX »

Galphanore: "I was a Catholic too, btw."

Maybe we can agree that early Catholicism is a reliable predictor of fututre athiesm.

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Post #77

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skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "I was a Catholic too, btw."

Maybe we can agree that early Catholicism is a reliable predictor of fututre athiesm.
No, all it means is that there are a lot of catholics out there.

I know some atheists that used to be Southern Baptists. I know atheists that were Jewish (quite a lot actually). I know an atheist that used to be a Muslim (although I suspect in the middle east, they won't admit it).

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Post #78

Post by Galphanore »

skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "I was a Catholic too, btw."

Maybe we can agree that early Catholicism is a reliable predictor of fututre athiesm.
It definately seems to be a predictor of skepticism anyway, and goat? He didn't say that all atheists used to be Catholics, just that a lot of Catholics end up atheists.
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Post #79

Post by Goat »

Galphanore wrote:
skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "I was a Catholic too, btw."

Maybe we can agree that early Catholicism is a reliable predictor of fututre athiesm.
It definately seems to be a predictor of skepticism anyway, and goat? He didn't say that all atheists used to be Catholics, just that a lot of Catholics end up atheists.
To say that 'a lot of catholics end of atheists', you would have to analyse the percentage of Catholics that do, and then compare the percentages to other religions.

When it comes to ex-Christian atheists, there will be more ex-RCC athiests, for the mere fact that there are more RCC than any other denomination by a very large extent.

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Post #80

Post by Galphanore »

goat wrote:
Galphanore wrote:
skepticFromTX wrote:Galphanore: "I was a Catholic too, btw."

Maybe we can agree that early Catholicism is a reliable predictor of fututre athiesm.
It definately seems to be a predictor of skepticism anyway, and goat? He didn't say that all atheists used to be Catholics, just that a lot of Catholics end up atheists.
To say that 'a lot of catholics end of atheists', you would have to analyse the percentage of Catholics that do, and then compare the percentages to other religions.

When it comes to ex-Christian atheists, there will be more ex-RCC athiests, for the mere fact that there are more RCC than any other denomination by a very large extent.
True enough.
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