Does God cause evil?
Some assert that God causes no evil. Is there cause to believe this is true. Can this position be supported. Is the character described in the bible incapable of evil?
I would assert that a position that claims God created everything would make him the original cause of evil. That God cannot escape being the cause of evil since he created any and all situations in which evil would arise.
Does God cause evil?
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DanieltheDragon
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Does God cause evil?
Post #1Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
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Re: Does God cause evil?
Post #81theophile wrote: [Replying to post 64 by Donray]
God, by initiating action to take Israel away from Pharaoh, hardened Pharaoh's heart, yes. Much the same way if I tried to take what you think is yours, you would stiffen and tighten your grip on it.Did your god harden the Pharaohs heart?
You should read the Bible!
21 The Lord said to Moses, When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, Let my son go, so he may worship me. But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.
Please explain how your god did not directly harden his heart? No one thus far in the story told the Pharaoh "Let my people go" So your logic is just your Christian glasses making assumptions about the story. So, please offer an explanation that fits the story or admit you don't even know the bible story.
Also, you could not figure out a way to get the Pharaoh to let the Jew go without murdering babies and children?
You don't think a 200 foot tall god standing in front of the Pharaoh would do the trick? Why?
If you were faced with a family (baby, 2 children, mother, father, grandma) and the father (Pharaoh) has two woman held as sex slaves. Would shoot the father that is really the problem and once dead everyone would give up. Or like your god would start by shooting the grandma then the mother them the kids then the baby and then the father?
Why don't Christians see how the bible makes your god a vindictive evil god?
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DanieltheDragon
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Re: Does God cause evil?
Post #82[Replying to post 78 by theophile]
Except he follows this up by helping the Isrealites enslave others and set up a system of slavery for them. So what one step forward two steps back?Sure, if God is God, then God should act on behalf of all enslaved peoples. I agree. But the fact that God frees Israel is a step in the right direction: that perhaps this is a God who stands with the enslaved against their oppressors
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Demented_Literature
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Re: Does God cause evil?
Post #83[Replying to post 77 by theophile]
For this to work:
Good -> Good
Good -> Evil
Evil -> Good
Evil -> Evil
You must admit that good and evil is not a binary function. There for isn't it obsolete? For the function of good to do both good and evil depending on the alternative recipient; doesn't it simply become an action that has no moral bearing what so ever?
To accept this means that good / evil is not just obscure; but irrelevant. And there for does not exist.
theophile wrote: [Replying to Demented_Literature]
This fits nicely with my view. Let's call evil what is evil. The adversity that village faces; the adversity the animals faced due to certain villagers.
Let's call good what is good. The fact that those animals are now free of an oppressor.
Good can lead to good.
Evil can lead to good.
Evil can lead to evil.
Good can lead to evil...
I think all these are true.
For this to work:
Good -> Good
Good -> Evil
Evil -> Good
Evil -> Evil
You must admit that good and evil is not a binary function. There for isn't it obsolete? For the function of good to do both good and evil depending on the alternative recipient; doesn't it simply become an action that has no moral bearing what so ever?
To accept this means that good / evil is not just obscure; but irrelevant. And there for does not exist.
Post #86
[Replying to post 85 by Donray]
Offhand, yes, I think Hitler created evil. Yes, he created the concentration camps. However, he and the other Nazi leaders were very careful how they went about this and talked about it. They called it the "final solution." Didn't want word getting out what they were really doing. They also put camps places where they weren't too visible. Didn't want to upset the public. Hitler, as I said, was very sneaky about the whole matter. Kept fairly quite about Jews until he was well in power, around 1936. Didn't want to alarm the public. He was also sneaky abut war. Initially knew no one in Germany was up for another world war. So he made sure everyone was enjoying the good life, before he started saying that Germany needed to build up its army just to keep peace. He also secretly built up arms. Then his big excuse was that Poland was attacking Germany. Had to invade to keep the peace, after all. The Nazis were masters at propaganda and sugar-coating what they were really up to. However, all this seems off the OP. I'm a history buff, so I couldn't help sharing a bit here.
Offhand, yes, I think Hitler created evil. Yes, he created the concentration camps. However, he and the other Nazi leaders were very careful how they went about this and talked about it. They called it the "final solution." Didn't want word getting out what they were really doing. They also put camps places where they weren't too visible. Didn't want to upset the public. Hitler, as I said, was very sneaky about the whole matter. Kept fairly quite about Jews until he was well in power, around 1936. Didn't want to alarm the public. He was also sneaky abut war. Initially knew no one in Germany was up for another world war. So he made sure everyone was enjoying the good life, before he started saying that Germany needed to build up its army just to keep peace. He also secretly built up arms. Then his big excuse was that Poland was attacking Germany. Had to invade to keep the peace, after all. The Nazis were masters at propaganda and sugar-coating what they were really up to. However, all this seems off the OP. I'm a history buff, so I couldn't help sharing a bit here.
Re: Does God cause evil?
Post #87[Replying to post 81 by Donray]
I don't think God causes evil. I vie God as loving; and when you are loving, you do not seek to coerce others by horrible threats and punishments. Clearly, the OT God does do the latter. Hence, I posit little validity in the OT accounts of God.
I view God as Cosmic Artist. That means, God lures us, does not force or coerce us. Freedom is essential in the production of beauty. Beauty demand complexity, and complexity means things can be used some other way, have choices. That being the case, all creatures have some real degree of freedom. And since we have freedom, God cannot decide for us. We have to decide for ourselves. Evil occurs because of bad decision-making on our part, from our failure to actualize God's aims for occasions. And evil does not mean evil intent. The radical nature of evil is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Because complexity, beauty, makes for freedom, it would have been impossible for God to have crated an evil-proof universe. That would have had to be a universe so simple, that you couldn't enjoy even a simple camp fire. But such a simple universe would be boring, not beautiful. So as Cosmic Artist, God is the great risk taker. Chances for evil always overlap with chances for good.
I don't think God causes evil. I vie God as loving; and when you are loving, you do not seek to coerce others by horrible threats and punishments. Clearly, the OT God does do the latter. Hence, I posit little validity in the OT accounts of God.
I view God as Cosmic Artist. That means, God lures us, does not force or coerce us. Freedom is essential in the production of beauty. Beauty demand complexity, and complexity means things can be used some other way, have choices. That being the case, all creatures have some real degree of freedom. And since we have freedom, God cannot decide for us. We have to decide for ourselves. Evil occurs because of bad decision-making on our part, from our failure to actualize God's aims for occasions. And evil does not mean evil intent. The radical nature of evil is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Because complexity, beauty, makes for freedom, it would have been impossible for God to have crated an evil-proof universe. That would have had to be a universe so simple, that you couldn't enjoy even a simple camp fire. But such a simple universe would be boring, not beautiful. So as Cosmic Artist, God is the great risk taker. Chances for evil always overlap with chances for good.
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Zzyzx
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Post #88
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[Replying to post 86 by hoghead1]
HH, Didn't Hitler's ideas reflect much of what was presented by Martin Luther (Protestant reformer of the 1500s)?
https://archive.org/stream/TheJewsAndTh ... N_djvu.txt
[Replying to post 86 by hoghead1]
HH, Didn't Hitler's ideas reflect much of what was presented by Martin Luther (Protestant reformer of the 1500s)?
https://archive.org/stream/TheJewsAndTh ... N_djvu.txt
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Post #89
[Replying to post 88 by Zzyzx]
Yes, true, interesting point. Luther initially hoped he'd win over all the Jews. What a thing to wave in front of the pope. So he wrote a work called "Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew." However, Luther didn't succeed at all. Hence, he wrote a work called "The Jews and Their Lies.' In it, he recommended a policy very close to what Hitler carried out. At one point, he said something like burn their books, burn their synagogues, and don't forget, burn the Jews. Luther also recommended that Jews be denied citizenship and be put to manual labor. Luther hatted Jews, gypsies, and peasants. When the peasants revolted, he wrote to the nobility, encouraging them to go among the peasants and cut them down with the sword, like mad dogs.
Yes, true, interesting point. Luther initially hoped he'd win over all the Jews. What a thing to wave in front of the pope. So he wrote a work called "Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew." However, Luther didn't succeed at all. Hence, he wrote a work called "The Jews and Their Lies.' In it, he recommended a policy very close to what Hitler carried out. At one point, he said something like burn their books, burn their synagogues, and don't forget, burn the Jews. Luther also recommended that Jews be denied citizenship and be put to manual labor. Luther hatted Jews, gypsies, and peasants. When the peasants revolted, he wrote to the nobility, encouraging them to go among the peasants and cut them down with the sword, like mad dogs.
Re: Does God cause evil?
Post #90So, the OT of the bible is nothing but stories created by man and have nothing to do with the god described in the NT part of the bible?hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 81 by Donray]
I don't think God causes evil. I vie God as loving; and when you are loving, you do not seek to coerce others by horrible threats and punishments. Clearly, the OT God does do the latter. Hence, I posit little validity in the OT accounts of God.
I view God as Cosmic Artist. That means, God lures us, does not force or coerce us. Freedom is essential in the production of beauty. Beauty demand complexity, and complexity means things can be used some other way, have choices. That being the case, all creatures have some real degree of freedom. And since we have freedom, God cannot decide for us. We have to decide for ourselves. Evil occurs because of bad decision-making on our part, from our failure to actualize God's aims for occasions. And evil does not mean evil intent. The radical nature of evil is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Because complexity, beauty, makes for freedom, it would have been impossible for God to have crated an evil-proof universe. That would have had to be a universe so simple, that you couldn't enjoy even a simple camp fire. But such a simple universe would be boring, not beautiful. So as Cosmic Artist, God is the great risk taker. Chances for evil always overlap with chances for good.
Why do a lot of Christians think the bible is the word of god and that the story about the tree knowledge is true?
This is the problem with debating with Christians, no two Christians agree about their religion, the bible, or God/Jesus.
