So rape is Okay, so long as I pay her family???

[chelbelle89]

Something I read in Deuteronomy has thrown me off. In Ch. 22 Verses 28-29 the NIV Bible states:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and he rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fify shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. he can never divorce her as long as he lives."

So, homosexuals are to be stoned to death, but a man can rape me as long as my family gets compensation? Now, I know what many Christians would say to this: The NT has given new law...etc. But...

1.) what about the Jewish faith? Is there new law for Judaism, or can men still have a clear conscience for doing such a thing, as long as there is compensation?

2.) since most of societies laws are based upon religious virtue, does this mean that the rapists of today are being punished too harshly? What about those who rape children?

[OnceConvinced]

The other argument I heard lately is that "rape" mentioned in the bible is not really rape. Just as they claim that "slavery" in the bible isn't slavery as we understand it to be.

[Scotracer]

The other argument I heard lately is that "rape" mentioned in the bible is not really rape. Just as they claim that "slavery" in the bible isn't slavery as we understand it to be.

Aren't apologetics just the darnedest thing?

This is a 2000 year old book - anyone that looks to that for moral guidance may need some correction.

[Jrosemary]

Something I read in Deuteronomy has thrown me off. In Ch. 22 Verses 28-29 the NIV Bible states:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and he rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fify shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. he can never divorce her as long as he lives."

So, homosexuals are to be stoned to death, but a man can rape me as long as my family gets compensation? Now, I know what many Christians would say to this: The NT has given new law...etc. But...

1.) what about the Jewish faith? Is there new law for Judaism, or can men still have a clear conscience for doing such a thing, as long as there is compensation?

2.) since most of societies laws are based upon religious virtue, does this mean that the rapists of today are being punished too harshly? What about those who rape children?

Oy! I had to boldface one part of this, because I can't believe that someone thinks this might be what Judaism is about. I'm glad you asked, because I don't want you going through life with an outrageous misunderstanding of what Judaism is like.

But I have to ask you, do you seriously imagine hordes of Jewish men running around raping unmarried women, paying off the dads and marrying the girls afterward? Do you honestly think there's any possibility that Judaism would justify such actions? It ain't so . . . and to think that any 21st century person finds that plausible is terrifying! How can you think so little of Judaism? I mean really, how? Just because you cherry-picked a verse from Deuteronomy, without looking at our commentaries or the Talmud or the long history of Judaism?

I'm equally astonished that no one else here addressed this. What, everyone who read this thread thinks it's perfectly possible that Judaism is ok with rape? Wow. I'm horrified to think that no one knows any better than that. I had no idea people here had such a low opinion of Judaism.

I'm not saying this to be nasty. I know the original question wasn't meant in a nasty way. I'm saying this because I'm genuinely shocked.

Ok . . . I've got that out of my system. Let me calm down and answer this reasonably. But for future reference, the way to phrase a question like that is to say "How do Jews deal with this troublesome--even horrifying--verse of the Torah? What relevancy does it have for today's Judaism?" Don't ask it in a way that states you think it's possible that Judaism is fine with rape.

Firstly, Judaism does not condone rape.

Secondly, run out to the store and buy a copy of JPS's The Jewish Study Bible. It has excellent commentaries.

Judaism is all about commentaries. Commentaries and arguments and debates about how to sanctify our lives and live out the mitzvot--that is, the commandments. The Torah is the starting place for that conversation. It's not the end of that conversation. This is important, so I'll repeat it: the Torah is the beginning of the conversation, not the end. We're don't slavishly follow the Bible. Back in the early middle ages, Maimonides (a famous Jewish philosopher whom we usually nickname Rambam) pointed out that just because the Torah talks about taking an eye for an eye, no rabbi from Moses to the present had ever acted on that or blinded anyone.

And Judaism doesn't hold with stoning anyone to death. And as far as homosexuality goes, three out of the four major branches of Judaism (Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist) allow gay marriage. Only the Orthodox do not, and while I doubt they will anytime soon, most of them aren't overly-obsessed with the issue. Jews have relatively few hang-ups about homosexuality or sexuality in general--as a friend of mine put it, with tongue firmly in cheek, "Christians are obsessed with sex; Jews are obsessed with food."

To address the part of Deuteronomy you cherry picked, I'm copying and pasting my response to someone else who cherry picked the same verse on another thread:

PointusPilate wrote:
Christianity and the bible seem to place a high value on virginity, as if having sex defies the body. Well, if you believe virginity is a virtue, then you may be able to avail yourself of a biblical sure-fire way to marry a virgin girl. Please turn to Deut 22:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Please turn to the Talmud as well, which stipulates that a girl who has been raped has the right to refuse marriage with the rapist. (Although it's not clear the verse you refer to is dealing with rape: the Hebrew doesn't suggest rape as strongly as it does in, say, 22:25.)

The Talmud, in Judaism, is scripture and the basis for much of rabbinic Judaism. It contains what's called the 'Oral Law,' which, traditionally, was given to Moses at the same time he received the Torah. Not all Jews agree with that tradition, of course, looking instead at the findings of textural criticism to help ascertain the origins of these works. But, in either case, in Judaism we read the Torah largely through the lens of the Talmud.

(And the commentaries don't end with the Talmud. Actually, even the Talmud itself contains commentaries on the Oral Law, commentaries on the commentaries, rabbinic stories, and so on. Meanwhile, discussions about the Torah and all the problematic passages continue to this day. We don't slavishly follow the literal words of the Torah. We bring our traditions, brains and reasoning to bear.)

PontiusPilate wrote:
Now, here is what Jesus thought of such laws - Matthew 5:.
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I'll leave it to the Christians to answer this in greater detail--but, judging by Jesus's hostility toward the Sadducees and the fact that he was so often in the company of Pharisees (the champions of the Oral Law and forefathers of rabbinic Judaism--the Sadducees were opposed to the Oral Law), I'd say it's a good bet that he accepted the Oral Law. The Oral Law was not yet written down in the Talmud, but he probably wasn't thinking of the passage you referred to without also thinking of numerous commentaries and debates on that passage . . . and it's quite likely that the stipulation that a girl did not have to marry her rapist had already long been in place.

Meanwhile, I strongly recommend picking up a copy of The Jewish Study Bible. (It's a readable translation.) That way, instead of just mining the Torah for the most shocking verses you can find, you can read the notes, which will sometimes give you a grasp of the Hebrew involved. (My own Hebrew, I'll admit, leaves much to be desired--though it's improving bit by bit.) It will also give you references to Talmudic commentaries and post-Talmudic commentaries on the verses.

Another great resource with lots of commentaries plus references to the Talmud--not to mention the Hebrew side by side with the English--is the Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary. Its layout is a bit harder to understand, however, unless you're already familiar with how Torah readings and Haftarah readings work in a synagogue. And it only contains the Torah and a few selections from the Prophets--it doesn't have the whole Tanakh. (What Christians call the Old Testament.) Still, the commentaries and references are splendid.

[elle]

I'm equally astonished that no one else here addressed this. What, everyone who read this thread thinks it's perfectly possible that Judaism is ok with rape? Wow. I'm horrified to think that no one knows any better than that. I had no idea people here had such a low opinion of Judaism.

Nope. I can't speak for others, but I've been waiting for a post from you or cnorman to address the subject. I don't have a low opinion of Judaism, I just know very, very little about it that I haven't read directly from this website so I don't feel qualified to comment on some things.

PointusPilate wrote:
Christianity and the bible seem to place a high value on virginity, as if having sex defies the body. Well, if you believe virginity is a virtue, then you may be able to avail yourself of a biblical sure-fire way to marry a virgin girl. Please turn to Deut 22:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Please turn to the Talmud as well, which stipulates that a girl who has been raped has the right to refuse marriage with the rapist. (Although it's not clear the verse you refer to is dealing with rape: the Hebrew doesn't suggest rape as strongly as it does in, say, 22:25.)

I definitely do not see how this passage could be used to suggest that rape is condoned (though there are other scriptures that have given me that impression in the past). Unfortunately I do not have a Jewish Study Bible or Talmud to refer to, so do you know of any online commentaries dealing with this issue or scholars that I could look up?

[Jrosemary]

Nope. I can't speak for others, but I've been waiting for a post from you or cnorman to address the subject. I don't have a low opinion of Judaism, I just know very, very little about it that I haven't read directly from this website so I don't feel qualified to comment on some things.

Believe me, I understand that most people here don't know much about Judaism. No problem--we all stand to learn from each other about our varying beliefs. I also realize that Chelbelle asked a question in good faith--and that no offense was intended. But the bar shouldn't be that low, folks! Everyone here should be aware that Judaism doesn't condone rape.

Unfortunately I do not have a Jewish Study Bible or Talmud to refer to, so do you know of any online commentaries dealing with this issue or scholars that I could look up?

Er, the Talmud is not all that accessible. There's a reason we have Talmudic scholars! (Most of whom are Jewish, but there are some Christian Talmudic scholars out there too.) It's a massive work, filling volumes and volumes. There is a bit that's easy reading--quotes and parables from the rabbis of old that we include in our prayerbook. Wikipedia has a decent explanation of the Talmud here. It will give you an idea of why it's hard to just pick up a volume of the Talmud and go.

For people who are into the Talmud, scholars or not, there are all sorts of classes available at yeshivas, synagogues and what have you. But to really know your stuff, it takes a lifetime. Arguably several lifetimes!

There are good websites about Judaism in general. Judaism101 jumps to mind--that's presented from an Orthodox point of view, however. (Cnorman and I are both Conservative Jews and far more liberal.) I don't know, off-hand, of any on-line sites dedicated to Talmudic commentary. They probably exist--I know Aish.com has articles, but that's also very Orthodox. It's still a cool site, mind--I read it often--but it tends to present a different Judaism than Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist. Not always; there are a few things (very few) that we all agree on!

JTS--The Jewish Theological Seminary--has great Torah commentaries from a Conservative Jewish viewpoint. (Cnorman introduced me to them.) I've posted some under 'Judaism' and highly recommend them. That will be the type of Judaism you're used to hearing about from me and Cnorman! This is their homepage.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism sometimes has cool stuff: this is their website.

Ooh! Reform Jewish Magazine is cool and often has good articles and commentary. Check it out here.

I'm not sure what they have off hand--but look up the Reconstructionist site and perhaps 'Jewish Renewal' as well. You'll probably find good stuff.

But I strongly encourage you to purchase a copy of JPS's The Jewish Study Bible. It's worth the investment. It's a straightforward, easy to read translation. It comes in paperback, so it's not outrageously priced. (It's not like one of the big, hard-covered fancy Bibles that cost a fortune.) It gives excellent modern commentaries, often sharing what the Talmud had to say about verses, as well as Jewish scholars throughout the ages. It's got brilliant essays too.

So does The Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary: brilliant essays, brilliant commentaries (ancient, modern and everything in between) and lots of references to the Talmud. As I've mentioned before, it's not just a translation, it's what we call a chumash. It's got a complicated set up!

Because it has the Hebrew and the English, the Etz Hayim starts at the 'back' of the book and ends at the 'front.' It also breaks up the Torah into separate 'parshas' with a reading from the Prophets (called a Haftarah) at the end of each parsha. That's because it's meant to be read in a synagogue, where we read one parsha of the Torah each Shabbat (Sabbath) followed by a Haftarah. So it is confusing . . . but you'll get the hang of it quick enough.

Trust me, it's worth the initial confusion! But if you're daunted, start with JPS's The Jewish Study Bible.

[Jrosemary]

P.S. to Elle:

There's also The Complete Idiots Guide to the Talmud. I own it, but I haven't read it yet. It's on my list!

[elle]

Thank you very much for your informative answer! I will definitely check out the links that you mentioned and I've got the books in my Amazon wishlist now, so hopefully I'll be able to order them soon.

[Coyotero]

Jrosemary (and others) because you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject:

What are the chances of this being a possible mistranslation?

In my studies of German I've learned a number of words that don't exactly translate, you can get the 'gist' of a word, but it's true meaning is more complex than a single word. And German is as close to a 'sister' language as English can have, Talking about Hebrew you're speaking of a language pretty far removed from our own.

It seems to me that this could be a semantics issue. But seeing as I'm not a scholar in the bible or Hebrew, it's just a crackpot theory. Anyone care to possibly shed some light on it?

[Jrosemary]

Jrosemary (and others) because you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject:

What are the chances of this being a possible mistranslation?

In my studies of German I've learned a number of words that don't exactly translate, you can get the 'gist' of a word, but it's true meaning is more complex than a single word. And German is as close to a 'sister' language as English can have, Talking about Hebrew you're speaking of a language pretty far removed from our own.

It seems to me that this could be a semantics issue. But seeing as I'm not a scholar in the bible or Hebrew, it's just a crackpot theory. Anyone care to possibly shed some light on it?

One caveat: I'm still a beginner in Hebrew. I'm learning a lot, but I'm no expert. So I'm going to go by discussions at my synagogues and commentaries and such.

I don't think 'rape' is a mistranslation so much as too narrow a translation. It could be a guy raping a virgin/unmarried young woman--or it could be voluntary on her part. This verse leaves open the possibility that we're not dealing with force, whereas 22:25 is more clearly talking about rape.