What about Satan?

[juliod]

Often, in these forums, we are debating whether or not prayer "works". This usually takes the form of the christians explaining away the fact that we can never seem to detect the influence of prayer. It's always "God doesn't do tests" or "God does what's best for you, not necessarily what you ask for" or "Sometimes god says no".

So let's try the opposition. Will Satan answer a prayer in an unambiguous fashion? If not, why not? Does Satan have any power in the world today? Does he have a will independant of YHWH?

We often hear from christians about Satan or demons influencing people, or people working for them. So it should be possible to interact with them in some way.

Is it possible to summon a demon? Can a person converse with Satan?

How about if I ask Satan to cause me to sin? For example, I do not drink alcohol. If I pray to Satan to make me an alcoholic, will he? If not, why not?

DanZ

[unprofitable servant]

It is possible to summon demons. There are many people who do it today.

The ones called voodoo doctors witch doctors and others that come in contact with paranormal events. Unfortunately I don't know the names of all the pratictioners of these things but they are out there and Satan does answer them.

He also answers the prayers of many who call themselves christians. How?

God says in Jeremiah 23:
21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.

God says this because dreams are not to be used as doctrine, but they do it anyway.

Because when they start getting behind their collegues in church attendance and in tithes they then begin praying for a way to move the hearts of their parishoners they become covetous in their hearts, then cometh the wicked one and grants them the sermons that will get the people on their feet.

Satan has permission. He is what God said He would choose for them when He said in Isaiah 66: 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
and at 2Thessalonians 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Satan is able to transform himself 2Corintians 11:
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Now as far as him answering your prayer to be a drunk, that can depend on what he can get out of it. Will making you a drunk make you hate God or become a rapist or child molester or something that will keep you from even thinking about searching for truth?

Believe it that Satan knows a lot about you and will use it against you.

Please DON'T TRY IT!!! IT'S NOT WORTH THE PAIN!!

[juliod]

Thank you for your reply. I mean it too. I was beginning to worry that no one would answer.

Now as far as him answering your prayer to be a drunk, that can depend on what he can get out of it. Will making you a drunk make you hate God or become a rapist or child molester or something that will keep you from even thinking about searching for truth?

How about if I pray to Satan to make me a rapist, child molester and/or alcoholic? The worse the better. Right now I have no propensity for any of those things. If I were to become one that would certainly be good evidence for the existance of Satan. I couldn't deny the result.

You see, I am a strong atheist and a naturalist. I have no problem with prayer to Satan or demons. There is no such thing, and I am so sure of it I feel absolutely safe doing it. I would feel pretty dang silly too, but safe. I would bet my life on it.

DanZ

[unprofitable servant]

How about if I pray to Satan to make me a rapist, child molester and/or alcoholic? The worse the better. Right now I have no propensity for any of those things. If I were to become one that would certainly be good evidence for the existance of Satan. I couldn't deny the result.

But you already have the 'propensity' to sin. You are already working what satan wants you to do and that is to believe he doesn't exist and that God doesn't exist either.

He doexn't want you to see that the natural things are godmade and are not something that just popped out of the air.

Satan is more subtle than to just make you a molester or rapist. The thing must be in you, a part of what you are. He can't make a new thing or make you go against your natural defenses. If you thind something is bad and you know it is in your heart and it is repulsive to you he can't make you that.

Be careful because he does know what will affect you and it may not be what thing you think.

[juliod]

He can't make a new thing or make you go against your natural defenses.

Are you say that I, as a strong atheist, have a foolproof defense against Satan?

There's a Big Problem here. In effect you have described Satan and YHWH as identical creatures.

They both hide. They both refuse to confirm their existance. They both do things, but so subtly that it cannot be detected. Neither can be got to do something in particular.

Is there a difference between YHWH and Satan? Why do they always seem to agree on every important issue?

If Satan wishes to hide his existance wouldn't YHWH want to confirm his existance?

DanZ

[unprofitable servant]

Are you say that I, as a strong atheist, have a foolproof defense against Satan?

No that's not what i'm saying.

There's a Big Problem here. In effect you have described Satan and YHWH as identical creatures.

They both hide. They both refuse to confirm their existance. They both do things, but so subtly that it cannot be detected. Neither can be got to do something in particular.

I haven't described God. I am not saying that Satan would not confirm his existence I'm pretty sure he would. I'm just saying that I don't think or believe that satan can make you do what's not in you to do.

I wouldn't advise testing him to see.
There is no refusal to confirm by God to let you know Him but if you say you don't believe in Him why should He confirm what you don't want to believe.

Satan on the other hand does want to confirm himself because he wants everyone to see him he wants you to call on him.

I just ask that you really consider not doing that.

[juliod]

Satan on the other hand does want to confirm himself because he wants everyone to see him he wants you to call on him.

If I call on him, will he do something that I ask? If I flip coins, can Satan make them land all heads? If I ask him for $50 will he give it to me? If I ask him for information I don't already possess, can he give it to me?

DanZ

[RevJP]

Are you say that I, as a strong atheist, have a foolproof defense against Satan?

I think what he is saying is that satan alread has what he needs from you, your disbelief. He doesn't need you to rape, or murder, or anything else. You, just as you are, are exactly what he wants and he already has it.

[juliod]

I think what he is saying is that satan alread has what he needs from you, your disbelief. He doesn't need you to rape, or murder, or anything else.

That's an interesting point of view. But I think most Satan-believers think he is interested in rape, murder, etc.

I can't actually imagine why he would decline to make me a criminal monster, especially when I am asking him to. Does Satan not want me to cause harm to others?

OTOH, if Satan is satisfied by the status quo then should YHWH be dissatisfied with it? If I pray to YHWH will he remove one of my vices?

DanZ

[RevJP]

That's an interesting point of view. But I think most Satan-believers think he is interested in rape, murder, etc.

I would disagree. I think most bible believing people understand that satan is interested in keeping you, anyone, seperated from God. Since that is the status quo, barring faith in Christ. He has what he wants.

Does Satan not want me to cause harm to others?

I think only if it serves a purpose he has. He could be just as satisfied with someone living their entire lives not believing in God.

if Satan is satisfied by the status quo then should YHWH be dissatisfied with it?

Simply because God WANTS a relationship with you, and everyone, He is not satisfied with the status quo because it keeps you seperated from Him.