The Problem of Evil

[Cre8]

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL

I am not a Ph.D. nor am I a prof at a liberal or conservative university. I went to college and have studied for most of my adult years. I have listened intently to the wisdom of the ages and at times, the folly of my own heart. I have not and will not subscribe to a teaching or document simply because one or more people subscribe to it.

For many years I thought that Kant, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Hegel and many other philosophers, when discussing God, were seeking to find a universal philosophy and in many ways, justify their evil. I thought that way because I could not fathom ANY reason for their questioning of theologies. I saw their intellectual discussion as arrogant and evasive to the truths of the Bible. I saw their theories as weak and prone to wandering the desert of temptation. I was taught as a young man that questioning theology (or the Bible) was due to some form of spiritual depravity or pride. I found that it was I that was hiding behind a mask of simple mindedness.

The Bible is a remarkable document and anyone who fails to see that has surely never studied it. It addresses every form of refuting opposition you can imagine. It's source of apologetic ammunition is unmatched by any religious document I have studied. Whether you agree with it's words or not, the book is simply fascinating. It was written over a 1,500-year period and by many kinds of people. It has shaped the world's 3 largest religions. I would say its impact on our culture's view of evil is worth taking a look at. A close look.

Warning: If you do not wish to read of the more harsh realities of Judeo-Christian scripture and theology then I strongly suggest you not proceed.

Evil is a universally known word. It really needs no introduction. We all have a view of it. Most religions have doctrines regarding it. The problems surrounding evil have been discussed for millennia. I will, for this discussion, examine the Western view of evil. The topic of evil is not, however, limited to the Bible (or religion).

Some people believe the Bible to be the perfect, totally inerrant word of God. Some simply think of the Bible as a spiritual guide and not an authoritative document. Some discount the scriptures entirely. However, Western culture was founded on Biblical principals both directly and indirectly. The world view as seen in the Bible has dramatically shaped Western thought. Therefore, most people in the West have derived an inherited Judeo-Christian presupposition of good and evil. This supposes evil to be the antithesis of good.

There are many ways that people interpret the Bible. Jews, Protestant Christians and Catholics all have distinct methods to divide the ancient scriptures. If you believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then you also believe that all the information listed in those 66 books is perfect and has not been changed or altered by anyone or anything. If you hold this view then you are also familiar with good and evil as it is described in the holy writ.

Here are some basic Biblical facts:
1. God is holy, holy, holy.
2. God is love.
3. God is the creator and ruler of the universe.
4. God created those who do evil (Satan, demons, people).
5. All people must never break God’s laws.
6. If you break even the smallest of God’s laws you are sent to hell.
7. All people (including infants) are sinners by nature.
8. God allowed an eternal calamity that will only be survived by a limited number of people.
9. Jesus Christ is the only savior of man
10. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ can be saved.

The Bible predominantly focuses on the redemption of God’s chosen people. Much information is listed in Scripture but the lion share of text concerns the “covenant” people or the “believers” in God. That is not a theological statement; it’s simply a literary observation. In the Bible, God takes absolutely all the credit for good and places all the blame for evil on others (Satan, demons, people). God is referred to as holy and clean. Satan, demons and people are referred to as unclean.

The Biblical God designed man and breathed life into him. The text is clear that from Adam in the Garden of Eden to this very day, God has always sought out certain chosen individuals for his holy purposes.

In that equation, one must also see that there is also a group of people who are not chosen by God for holiness. The Bible states in Exodus 7:3

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt...

I have read multitudes of literature discussing the "hardening" of hearts. You can do many, many theological dances with this topic. The biblical fact remains: God chooses some for blessing, example: Moses, Saul of Tarsus, etc. and chooses some for hardening, example: Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, etc. Many people have tried to "soften" the harsh realities of this biblical text.

The understanding of any competent theologian is there are no true contradictions in the Bible. There cannot be because scripture is believed to be inerrant. Also, any misconceptions of the Bible are due to human lack of understanding or sin. So, the biblical God always receives the benefit of any human doubt. Otherwise, chaos will reign in the world of theology. This is also psychologically (and theologically) convenient when the thinker finds seemingly illogical or contradicting information.

Again, Scripture is abundantly clear that God creates and predestines (from before the foundations of the world) those who will believe in Him. God is God, you believe in Him or you don’t. If you don’t, according to Biblical Christian theology, then you will be sent to eternal punishment in hell. A child can understand this concept. If people are going to hell then it is because God allows it. Not only does He allow it, He created it. Satan does not send people to hell. People are not the architects (or the key holder) of hell, according to Scripture. God is.

So, if God “chooses” His “chosen” people for His specific blessing then others are simply not chosen for blessing. Those people are unregenerate, hopeless sinners. They will, according to scripture, be hardened by their very nature as reprobate people. There are, in short, "left alone" to their sin.

If you are a believer, do you believe that your life is simply random and that God has no purpose for your life? You probably do not believe that. You probably believe that God created you as a sinner and then saved you. He had to save you if he truly “predestined you from before the foundations of the world” for His divine purposes. So, in the same way that He chose you (and Saul of Tarsus, etc.), He also didn’t choose the unbelievers (Judas Iscariot, Pharaoh, etc.). There is really no way around this if you really believe that the Bible is perfectly inspired of God. This is basic theology.

Now, many people have tried to make God seem less involved with judgment and hell. These teachers place all the focus on the sins of people. They teach that people can ignore and resist God’s plan for them. In other words, people have free will to disbelieve the God of Holy Scripture. They say God chose His believers from before the foundations of the world and on the other hand say that people can ignore that plan. These teachers say that God would never send someone to hell without a choice in the matter. So, in reality, these teachers believe that God is not completely sovereign, that man shares the sovereignty of choice. These thinkers are commonly known as Arminians, named after the Dutch college professor James (Jacob) Arminius (1560-1609).

Four of the most influential theologians of Church history are St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther and John Calvin. All of these theologians agreed that God, in the scriptures, made it crystal clear that He is God and nothing thwarts His plan. All four of these theologians agreed that God predestines believers to heaven and predestines unbelievers to hell. From a literary standpoint I must admit that if all four of these agree on any specific theological doctrine then there must be some heavy, heavy biblical text to back it up. Thinkers who follow this teaching are known as Calvinists.

So if you take a look at this information you can see there are basically two very different views regarding God’s choosing people for eternity. In simple terms, people who believe in a completely sovereign God, one who willfully creates “vessels for destruction” believe in a God who is very rigid and possess heavy wrath and Judgment. People who believe in a lesser sovereign God believe that God allows people to make their own mind up and choose heaven or hell for themselves. There is really no other logical way around these two different doctrines.

The Calvinist camp believes God is totally sovereign and the Arminian camp believes people have a free will. Why do people argue these doctrines? And argue they do! For centuries this topic has been debated.

The problem of evil lurks beneath these arguments.

The real question boils down to this: Why would a loving God allow evil to exist? That’s the biggie right there, folks. That’s the question of questions when discussing Judeo-Christian text and theology. Why would God, being eternally good and sovereign, allow something to offend Him? What is an even harder question is why would God allow that deadly evil to come into the presence of His beloved offspring? Asked like that, many people start to think a little more deeply about this topic.

According to the text, Adam and Eve sinned against God and because of that, all human are now sinners. That is exactly what the Bible says. The Bible is very clear about this. It is also clear that Jesus Christ, who is described in the Bible as the “second Adam”, died and rose from the grave so that God's people could go to heaven. So the first Adam sinned and everyone automatically received the curse of death.

The second Adam’s work was not as universal, however. The Bible says that Adam sinned and as a result, caused everyone to sin. The second Adam died and rose again to lift that curse. Only the lifting of the curse doesn’t apply to everyone. So the first Adam's sin brought a curse on EVERYONE but the second Adam only saved a limited number (limited Atonement). According to this teaching, the curse was automatic but the lifting of the curse is not automatic. Put like this we start to see a very narrow, judgmental God who creates many people and eventually tortures many of them in hell forever. One theologian put it like this, “The real question is not why does God save only a few people but rather why does He save anyone at all?”

So whether you believe the Bible is accurate or not, the Bible is clear on what it says about evil. According to the Bible, evil exists because God created an angel who became evil. Where did the holy angel Lucifer find the evil "ingredients" that transformed him into the evil Satan? How did he obtain those thoughts that made him proud and blasphemous? Did Lucifer travel to a distant universe that God had no control over? Well, if that happened then God is not God Almighty. No, according to scripture God is the God of all and everything. So that means that God allowed Lucifer to fall. Just like He allowed people to fall. God allowed a rebellion to occur. The text reads that pain and suffering occurs because of this evil. It is written in black and white. It seems to be senseless to try and make the Bible say something it doesn’t.

When I hear people make comments to perfect strangers like "Jesus loves you" I immediately wonder what their knowledge of Jesus really is. Jesus, we are told, will save a limited number of people. That explains why many people die and never believe in (or even hear about) him. If Jesus indeed does love a specific person then that person will be saved. This is also basic biblical study. Listen to what Jesus says in the book of John chapter 14 verse 6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” And in John 6 verse 44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day”

These verses are extremely clear. The only way to come to the father is through Jesus. And the only way to get to Jesus is to be drawn by the father. This is what the Bible says regarding God’s sovereignty in salvation. So when people say things like “Jesus loves you” they may very well be wrong, according to the Bible.

So many people in the free will (Arminian) Christian camp proclaim that God is a kind of celestial gentleman who would never force someone to accept Jesus as their savior. OK, then how did people get to be sinners in the first place? Again, how did we become sinners?

According to the Bible, it was not our will to be a sinners. We were born sinners (without choosing to be). We were born into slavery, by force. This was not a “gentlemen’s” decision. This was the decision of a Holy God creating and preparing many for destruction. Something seems very unfair here. Fairness is the potter's decision, not the clay's decision, right?

It would seem to me (and this is just my observation) that if God would allow all humans to be automatically (regardless of their will) cursed by the first Adam that all would be automatically blessed by the second Adam (regardless of their will). Sound strange? Well, Jesus was born in this world, died and rose again (all apart from my will). Why should it suddenly be my choice to be saved now? None of the other business was my choice (according to the Bible).

The Apostle Paul might reply to this and say, does the clay say to the potter, “why did you make me like this?” I would have to answer “I guess not.” But on the other hand, I am not merely clay, I am human clay, created by God in the image of God, says the Bible.

God, according to the Holy Bible, “takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked” but still he punishes the wicked. The same wickedness He created (or allowed, if you will). So, it can be said, then, that the God of Holy Scripture willfully tortures people forever. He sets people up to pay a price they can never afford and predestines (hardens) them to deny the only person who can pay it for them (Jesus). In the Biblical description, God does the most horrific, dreadful and hopeless acts of holy vengeance that one can ever imagine.

I am going to list a number of passages from the Bible. Please remember to read these verses in context.

Jacob steals Isaac's blessing pretending to be his brother Esau and playing a trick on his dying father. God then rewards the deception:

(Gen 27:11-12 NRSV) But Jacob said to his mother Rebekah, "Look, my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I am a man of smooth skin. Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him, and bring a curse on myself and not a blessing."

(Gen 27:19 NRSV) *Jacob* said to his father, "*I am Esau* your firstborn. I have done as you told me; now sit up and eat of my game, so that you may bless me."

(Gen 27:35 NRSV) But he (Isaac) said, "Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing."

Here is God rewarding Jacob for stealing the blessing:

(Gen 28:14 NRSV) and your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth,...

Later, the apostle Paul explains the blessing of Jacob in the book of Romans Chapter 9:
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory– 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”

This text is very clear. Paul clarifies God's position on sovereignty. Read it again. Romans Chapter 9 articulates in very clear words that it is God who decides life and death, blessing and curse. God hated Esau: Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Again, the text reads that God hated Esau. He loved Jacob. This hatred had nothing to do with Esau’s actions. God’s mind was made up before the twins were born. Before “the foundations of the world” God has made his mind up, according to the Bible. He loves some and hates others.

I do not know which view is more crushing: The Calvinist view of selective salvation, the belief that God has chosen certain people to go to Heaven and Hell. This choice, which was made long before the universe was even created, has nothing to do with the person’s longing for God or the attitude of his heart. It has nothing to do with the person’s humility, repentance, or his search for righteousness. It has nothing to do with God’s foreknowledge of who will become Christians in the future.

Or

The Arminian view: they believe man controls most aspects of his own life. Man’s freewill to choose his own destiny is central to this belief system. Arminians believe God would never force certain people to go to Heaven and Hell. Arminians believe people can choose (out of their own freewill) to accept or reject God’s forgiveness. They also believe a person who is already saved can choose to reject God. As a result, a person can lose his salvation. While some Arminians believe a person’s salvation can only be lost because of major unrepentant sins, others believe a person’s salvation can be lost several times a day.

The Calvinist view sees a God who predetermines certain souls to hell while the Arminian view sees a God who knows certain people will choose hell and then does nothing to stop them.

The 1st view gives certain people a will that will never choose God.
The 2nd view gives certain people a will that will never choose God.

In both theological views, God has the power to save the people but he does not. In the end, these people still end up in hell forever where there is eternal torture with no hope. Now you tell me, what difference does it ultimately make to the damned person? Either way, they were damned from the beginning. God hated them from before birth.

Here are some more verses from the Bible. There are many verses in the Bible that deal with God's love and blessings. The verses listed below are within the context of this current subject of evil, specifically in killing. Evil, as we all know, results in killing and death. I suggest that you read them very carefully in context. Again, my motivation in listing this information is to inform people of what the Bible says. Before examining these verses for yourself, please

do not think for a moment that the God of the New Testament is any different from the God of the Old Testament.
He is the same yesterday, today and forever, according to the Bible (Hebrews 13-8).



You can verify these verses in the Bible.

subject / chapter and verse
God is the first one to kill. Genesis 3:21
God knew good and evil before man. Genesis 3:22
God kills many: Genesis 7:21, 19:24
God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. Exodus 4:23
God kills the Egyptian firstborn humans and animals (after hardening Pharoah's heart). Exodus 12:30
Children who strike their parents are to be killed. Exodus 21:15
God kills Aaron's sons for offering "strange fire before the Lord." Leviticus 10:1-2
Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. Leviticus 20:9-12
The unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. Leviticus 21:9
God will "send wild beasts among you, which shall rob your of your children." Leviticus 26:22
"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." Leviticus 26:30
God kills Aaron's sons for offering "strange fire before the Lord." Numbers 3:4, 26:61
God hardens King Sihon's spirit and then kills him and all the men, women, and "little ones" in his kingdom. Deuteronomy 2:30-34
God delivers Og into Moses' hands, who then kills every man, woman, and child in every city. Deuteronomy 3:3-6
God tells the Israelites to kill everyone in the lands that they conquer and to "show no mercy unto them." Deuteronomy 7:2
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God "delivers into your hands," but keep the women for yourself. Deuteronomy 20:13-15
Kill everything that breathes in the cities that God gives you for an inheritance. Deuteronomy 20:16
Kill rebellious or disobedient sons. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Kill rape victims if they fail to cry out loud enough. Deuteronomy 22:23-34
If you misbehave, God will make you eat your sons and daughters. Deuteronomy 28:53, 28:55 28:56-67
If you make God angry. Deuteronomy 32:23-25
Joshua killed "everything that breathed" in each of the cities that he conquered, "as the Lord God of Israel commanded." Joshua 6:21, 8:24-26, 10:28-29, 10:32-33, 10:35, 10:37, 10:38, 10:40, 11:8, 11:11, 11:12, 11:14, 11:21
If you happen to see "the accursed thing," don't touch it. If you do, you, your family, and all of your animals must be burned. Joshua 7:1-26
God gets right in and fights with the Israelites. He "slew them with a great slaughter" and even "chased them along the way." What a guy. Joshua 10:10
God threw down "great stones from heaven" so that he could kill even more people than the Israelites "slew with the sword." Joshua 10:11
Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to God. Judges 11:29-39
God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite "man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 Samuel 15:3
David kills all the Amalekites again (see 15:7-8 where Saul kills them all the first time). 1 Samuel 27:8-11
To punish David for having Uriah killed, God kills David's newborn son. 2 Samuel 12:15, 18
God kills a couple hundred thousand people to punish David for having a census. 2 Samuel 24:15
Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates. 1 Kings 16:34
When many people are needlessly slaughtered, you will know that the Lord is God. 1 Kings 20:28
God sends two bears to rip up 42 little children for making fun of Elisha's bald head. 2 Kings 2:23-24
Mothers boiling and eating their own children. 2 Kings 6:28-29
God sends a famine on the people that lasts for seven years. 2 Kings 8:1
The 70 sons of Ahab are killed and their heads are put in baskets. 2 Kings 10:7-8
Jehu shows off his "zeal for the Lord" by murdering everyone in Samaria. 2 Kings 10:16-17
God sends lions to devour the Samaritans because "they knew not the manner of the God of the land." 2 Kings 17:25-26
David tortures all the inhabitants of several cities with saws, harrows of iron, and axes. 1 Chronicles 20:3
God kills the king of Israel and helps Abijah kill 500,000 Israelites. 2 Chronicles 13:15-20
In the largest single God-assisted killing in the bible, Asa kills one million Ethiopians. 2 Chronicles 14:8-13
Whoever does not seek the God of Israel should be executed. 2 Chronicles 15:13
God killed the women and children of Judah and smote the men with an incurable disease of the bowels until their "bowels fell out." 2 Chronicles 21:14-19
Amaziah, with God's help, kills 10,000 people; another 10,000 he leaves alive so that he can throw them off a cliff and break them in pieces. 2 Chronicles 25:11-12
Pekah kills 120,000 people in one day "because they had forsaken the Lord God of their fathers". 2 Chronicles 28:6, 8
God sends the king of the Chaldees to kill all the "young men with the sword." He had "no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand." 2 Chronicles 36:16-17
Esther has Haman's ten sons hung. Est.9:13
God (or Satan) kills Job's children in a windstorm. Job 1:19
God will rain fire and brimstone upon "wicked" people. Psalms 11:6
The God of Peace teaches us to kill our neighbors in war. Psalms 18:34
burn you to death. Psalms 21:9
If you forget God he will tear you in pieces. Psalms 50:22
If you don't trust God, he will kill you, and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. Psalms 52:5-6
"The righteous" will rejoice when they see "the wicked" being dismembered by God. They'll "wash their feet in the blood of the wicked." Psalms 58:10
God will "fill the places with dead bodies." Psalms 110:6
God is praised for slaughtering little babies. Psalms 135:8, 136:10
Happiness is smashing your little children against rocks. Psalms 137:9
A prayer that God will burn people to death. Psalms 140:10
Beat the hell out of your children. Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14, 29:15
"The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil; so do stripes the inward parts of the belly." Proverbs 20:30
Beat your slaves just like you do your children. Don't try to correct them with words. Proverbs 29:19
If you mock your father or disobey your mother, the ravens will pick out your eyeballs and feed them to the eagles. Proverbs 30:17
If God can find you, he will "thrust you through," smash your children "to pieces" before your eyes, and rape your wife. Isaiah 13:15-18
God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death. Jeremiah 11:22-23
God's sword will "devour" everyone until "no flesh shall have peace." Jeremiah 12:12
God will make everyone drunk and then "dash the fathers and the sons together." He vows to "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Jeremiah 13:13-14
God promises to kill everyone by war, starvation, and disease. Jeremiah 14:12,24:10, 29:17-18, 42:17-18, 22
People shall neither "be lamented" nor even buried, but "they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth." Jeremiah 16:3-4
When the people ask why God is killing people, God answers by saying, "Because your fathers have forsaken me." Jeremiah 16:10
Jeremiah asks God to kill the young men in war and the children by starvation. Jeremiah 18:21
God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other. Jeremiah 19:7-9
God will kill "both man and beast," with a "great pestilence." Jeremiah 21:6
God will force all of Israel to "be drunken." Then, he'll kill them all with a sword. Jeremiah 24:27-28
God will kill so many people that the entire earth will be covered with their dead bodies. No one is to mourn them or even bury them, "they shall be as dung upon the ground." Jeremiah 25:33
Even those Jews that flee to Egypt will not be spared. God will hunt them down and kill them all with war, famine, and disease. Jeremiah 44:12-13
God will cause the daughters of Rabbah to be burned to death. Jeremiah 49:2
God will "break in pieces" people. Jeremiah 51:21-23
God will cause fathers to eat their sons and sons to eat their fathers. Ezekiel 5:10
God plans to kill people with plagues, famines, and wars. But if any still survive, then he'll send beasts to devour them. Ezekiel 5:17
God plans to decorate the land with human bones and dead bodies. Ezekiel 6:5
Nebuchadnezzar orders those who accused Daniel (including their wives and children) to be cast into the lions den. Daniel 6:24
God assures Hosea that he will "slay even the beloved fruit of the womb." Hosea 9:16
God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and "their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:16
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17
Jesus says that most people are going to hell. Matthew 7:13-14
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't accept his preaching. Matthew 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Matthew 15:4-7
Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. Mark 9:43
Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. Luke 10:10-15
Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. Luke 12:5
All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. Luke 16:17
Those who do not believe in Jesus are tormented forever in hell. John 3:18
Jesus says that the wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. John 3:36
Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6
God will torture forever those who don't go to heaven. Acts 4:12
Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
God gives Death and Hell the task of indiscriminately killing one quarter of the earth's human population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." Revelations 6:8
Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. Revelations 9:15-19
God will have people killed by fire, plagues, and beasts. There will be dead bodies rotting, unburied everywhere. Revelations 11:5-10
God will send fire from heaven to devour people. Revelations 20:9-10
Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Revelations 20:15
Those who are fearful or unbelieving will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Revelations 21:8


The Biblical God condoned killing, genocide and slavery all in his own name. Why then does it seem strange to many people that so much killing is being done today in the name of God? The Biblical God has condoned the systematic killing of countless people over the centuries. Many believers in the God of the Bible are conditioned to accept killing as a means to resolve conflict. What is the value of a human life as described throughout the Bible? We are taught that our "enemies" are disposable.

Do you think that I am out of line by pointing these things out? If so, why? If you answer that question honestly you may see a very different side to evil. Please do not think for a moment that I consider myself more compassionate or loving than the God of the Bible. Please do not think for a moment that I consider myself more wise or holy than the God of the Bible. I simply do not. My words in this article are sincere. The Bible references are all there in black and white. I have not spun anything for anyone. The facts in this article stand by themselves. What you do with them is your business.

For an action to be considered evil by biblical standards, it must be an action that is contrary to God’s commandments. Evil, however, is ultimately a matter of timing and motive. A good action can be considered evil if it is out of time with God’s command. Example: God commands that the people of Israel gather manna for food on a specific morning. The people fail to do so in the morning and then try to gather it at nightfall. There is nothing evil with the gathering. The evil occurred when the people didn’t follow the specific instructions for the morning.

So it is with violence and killing. According to the Bible, there is nothing evil about violence, torture and killing when it is God doing it. If it was evil than God would never do it. Since he does, then those actions are justified by His motive and timing on any given action. Again, God holds the power to choose these things according to his will, according to scripture. Is it any surprise to you that over the years the people of God have historically claimed that God commanded and empowered them to slaughter their enemies? This is the ultimate excuse and permission to torture, maim and kill people and walk away with a holy feeling inside.

Committing suicide is generally considered evil by Judeo-Christian standards. When someone willfully submits to death for religious reasons, however, they are then considered a martyr (note: not all martyrs die willfully). A person can decide to willfully die on a cross and be considered holy. A person can willfully die in a hospital bed and be considered evil. What is the difference? Both folks are willfully dying. One person is considered a hero for laying his healthy body to death and the other is considered evil because they put their diseased-ridden body out of excruciating misery. One act is considered noble and the other selfish. Biblically speaking, evil is in the timing and motive.

A person can willfully, knowingly and legally kill themselves with cigarettes over a number of years. If that same person shoots themselves in the head then they are considered criminal. One act takes years and the other just a split second. Both acts are INDEED willful suicide (and both have survival rates as well). It is a matter of time. One act is considered legal and the other criminal. Evil is in the motive and the timing. Again, evil is in the motive and the timing and only the God of scripture can determine when and how it is considered evil. If God condones you dying willfully, then you are granted license to do so.

At the beginning and end of every day and throughout eternity, the God of the Bible reserves the right to be justified in all his actions. These actions can be saving people or condemning people, even though the people that he condemns were never even considered for heaven.


In Closing

Consider the life of King David. He is the most famous and beloved king in Jewish history. He is a biblical icon, a hero. According to the Bible David did some amazing things. He did miraculous things and loved people. He was a talented psalmist and musician. He was a shepherd and a military general. He was a king and a prophet. David is so important that Jesus Christ himself is called the Son of David.

David also confessed that he was an evil sinner. His autobiographical commentary revealed his beliefs about himself. The Bible says that David summoned a married female subject to have sex with him (impregnating her). He then had her husband put to death to cover it up and lied about it to the people of Israel. David tortured and killed many people and had multiple wives. You get a sense that David was living out his true beliefs of himself. This was a man who had full knowledge of God’s miraculous ways and holy will. He was not an “ignorant” sinner. He was a believer. The Old Testament reads that David was a man after God’s own heart (1 Samuel 13:13-14). Why does it say that? Is it because he said he was sorry and repented?

The New Testament confirms that David was a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22). You tell me, is there something strange with this picture? Jesus Christ condemned hypocrisy above all the sins of the religious Jews. What was David? Was he not an amazing, if not the most famous hypocrite? He was the king and he used that power to seduce, kill, torture, maim, fornicate and lie (just to name a few). And after all that the Bible still says he was a man after God’s own heart.

Biblically, this makes perfect sense to me. Remember what God said after Adam and Eve first sinned? Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil…(Genesis 3:22). Perhaps now you can understand why the biblical God would do all the things listed in the verses above. The biblical God is knowing good and evil. Am I saying that God is evil? No, I am not. By biblical definition, God is never evil and here is why:

Evil is the act of man, the devil and demons anytime they act contrary to the biblical God's commandments.

Did you catch that? Evil is not the stuff on the "don't do" list. Evil is the doing of anything that God says not to do, REGARDLESS if it seems good or not to us. (Stay with me, this is where many folks get off the bus). If God, according to the Bible, does ANYTHING, I repeat ANYTHING, then it is right, good, holy and just (even if he is killing or rewarding people for lying). The difference between our actions and God's actions is this: God decides when, where and how to do it. Whether it be killing enemies or loving enemies, God reserves the right to make the call. Biblically, that is the ontological prerogative of the Supreme Being. The right belongs to his might. We could save a sheep from falling into a pit on the Sabbath [but] if God says that is wrong, then it is wrong. Violent or peaceful, God calls the shots of when and how. Why? Because he is God. So we see that good and evil is a matter of authority.

Now then, the people of God can (and usually do) pen the victorious history books and then attribute every act of violence on their enemies to God's Word. Killing, they say, was God's direct command. When we are sparing an enemy, then that is God's command. When we are sparing a child in the womb, that is God's command. When we are killing a person in the gas chamber, then that is God's command. God's command becomes conveniently present when the people of God decide to the killing and the sparing. This they say, is good judgment. Judgment it is.

The Judeo-Christian mind assumes that evil is in man’s nature and therefore man is evil. Many people are taught this from birth. Once people determine what evil is and where it comes from they then act on those beliefs. In this very real sense, their conceived evil (like King David's) is experienced. People, indeed, prove their evil beliefs by their actions. Conveniently, many of these folks later say they're sorry and try to change their “evil” ways. At that point, according to the repented saints, God is showing his forgiveness on them.

Small digression: Many of these newly converted people decide that they will now seek righteousness. A large number of converts pursue righteousness with the same techniques that they once pursued evil with. They do it competitively: us against them. Only now they are on the “good” team. This is not spiritual growth. It is simply another egotistical, common and worldly attempt to be spiritual using non spiritual methods. Many, many of these people find themselves utterly frustrated that they are not “finding” righteousness and peace. This is because they are fighting with themselves. And so the rabbit trail begins. The more they reach for righteousness in this method the farther it is from their grasp.

What happens to people when you teach them that they are evil? They act evil. Have you ever heard the saying that you don’t have to teach a child to lie, that they will just naturally say untruths? Why do you really think people tell lies? Could it be that their parent/guardians have taught them to do just that? We teach children by our actions far more than with our words. Children create lies when they fear revealing the truth. What if parents didn’t fear the truth? Perhaps then their children would not fear the truth! What a concept…

This reality is undeniable: The God of the Bible lives through his believers. His ancient words are manifest through their faith in Him. Whether the Biblical God exists or not, he still acts through his people. His will is done on earth even today. And as a result of all that, many hospitals are built, many bingo nights occur and people are slaughtered in droves.

http://garylenaire.atspace.com/writings.html

[Corvus]

Bienvenu, Cre8. Welcome to the Debating Christianity & Religion.

As per the rules, I must ask you to please specify a clear question for debate, otherwise the topic may be moved elsewhere, where it can still be viewed, but does not need to be debated.

Although this has little to do with the rules, I would also recommend that the opening of your topic be as brief as possible, for two reasons; firstly, so that more people will go through the trouble of reading it; and secondly, a short question asking what everyone thinks on an issue is more universal than simply having a debate about which points of a particular member's stated theology they most disagree about. Let me assure you that I did read the entire post, large though it may be, and found it an interesting "insider's" warts-n-all perspective of God and the bible.

[Cre8]

Ok. Thank you for letting me post.

Bienvenu, Cre8. Welcome to the Debating Christianity & Religion.

As per the rules, I must ask you to please specify a clear question for debate, otherwise the topic may be moved elsewhere, where it can still be viewed, but does not need to be debated.

Although this has little to do with the rules, I would also recommend that the opening of your topic be as brief as possible, for two reasons; firstly, so that more people will go through the trouble of reading it; and secondly, a short question asking what everyone thinks on an issue is more universal than simply having a debate about which points of a particular member's stated theology they most disagree about. Let me assure you that I did read the entire post, large though it may be, and found it an interesting "insider's" warts-n-all perspective of God and the bible.

[Dilettante]

Just two things, Cre8:

1. You mentioned Calvinism and Arminianism, as if that exhausted the choices. But it's a false dilemma. What about Origenism? Origenists say all are predestined for eventual salvation. Support for this view can also be found in the Bible (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:3-4, or 2 Peter 3:9, or Ezekiel 33:11).

2. The Bible is not the ultimate guide to good and evil. Not according to Aquinas. Our conscience is. I don't care what the Bible says about beating your slaves or selling your sister into prostitution. We're not suddenly off the moral hook because we can find a suitable Bible verse to support our actions. Conscience is still the ultimate judge.

Other than that your post is well worth reading despite its length.
Regards,
Dilettante

[Cre8]

I appreciate your response-and I agree with you.

Just two things, Cre8:

1. You mentioned Calvinism and Arminianism, as if that exhausted the choices. But it's a false dilemma. What about Origenism? Origenists say all are predestined for eventual salvation. Support for this view can also be found in the Bible (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:3-4, or 2 Peter 3:9, or Ezekiel 33:11).

2. The Bible is not the ultimate guide to good and evil. Not according to Aquinas. Our conscience is. I don't care what the Bible says about beating your slaves or selling your sister into prostitution. We're not suddenly off the moral hook because we can find a suitable Bible verse to support our actions. Conscience is still the ultimate judge.

Other than that your post is well worth reading despite its length.
Regards,
Dilettante

[Overcomer]

So it is with violence and killing. According to the Bible, there is nothing evil about violence, torture and killing when it is God doing it. If it was evil than God would never do it. Since he does, then those actions are justified by His motive and timing on any given action. Again, God holds the power to choose these things according to his will, according to scripture. Is it any surprise to you that over the years the people of God have historically claimed that God commanded and empowered them to slaughter their enemies? This is the ultimate excuse and permission to torture, maim and kill people and walk away with a holy feeling inside.

I don't have the time to deal with everything in that long opening post. However, I would like to address the issue of God and who he kills (or orders killed) and when those deaths occur.

First of all, when God says don't do something, he is saying don't do that because it will hurt you and I don't want you to be hurt. In other words, he says don't do this and don't do that out of love as a parent tells a small child not to put his hand in on the stove burner when it's hot.

Secondly, when God says don't do something, he always explains what he will do if he is disobeyed. In other words, when he says don't worship idols and don't sacrifice your babies to them, etc., he says that, if people persist in committing these sins, he will discipline or punish them. He then explains what that discipline or punishment will be. Again, if a parent tells a child NOT to play with matches and he tells that child that he will punish him by sending him to his room with no T.V. that night if he doesn't obey, then, when he catches the child playing with matches, it isn't wrong for the parent to carry out the punishment.

Thirdly, God always gives many chances to people to change their ways and do as he has asked. You can see that time and time again in the Old Testament, this pattern of God telling people what is best for them, people refusing to listen to him and disobeying him, him clearly explaining to them time and time again what will happen if they persist in their sin.

Consider this: Let's say that you tell Osama bin Laden that he is NOT to send any more of his murderers anywhere in the world to do anybody harm. You tell him that, if he changes his ways and stops his terrorization, you will welcome him with open arms. You will forgive him and bless him. You also tell him that, if he doesn't change his ways, you will have to take action against him because you can't have him running around, training killers and taking more innocent lives. You tell him that, if he won't stop, you will either imprison or kill him

If the man refuses to listen and persists in his murderous ways, are you wrong in capturing him and carrying out exactly what you have told him you would do?

Now think about God who created man to be in a loving relationship with him. But man broke that relationship by following the devil. God could just let man go, but he loves him and wants to re-establish that relationship. So he implements a plan that is to be carried out through the nation of Israel.

If the nation of Israel were to stop following God and follow the idols of the pagans, then Israel would be lost, the plan for the salvation of mankind would be lost and hence, all human beings would be lost.

Therefore, whenever ungodly nations influenced Israel and got the people off-track (and we're talking pure evil here, like throwing babies alive into a fire to please a false god), God made it clear that he would not give up the nation of Israel because to do that would mean giving up his plan for bringing mankind back to him. He warned the pagan nations and he warned the Israelites, telling them what he wanted them to do and making it clear to them that, if they failed to stop their sinning then he would act. And yes, sometimes that meant killing some people and imprisoning others.

I can understand that someone who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and who is not filled with the Holy Spirit can pick up a Bible and open a page in the Old Testament that speaks about God passing judgement on people and not understand it.

I experience the love of God every day and I KNOW the great sacrifice he made of his own son because of that love. It is imperative that people read the Old Testament with New Testament eyes. In other words, look at what Jesus did out of love for mankind. Look at that sacrifice as you stand at the foot of the cross and see him bleeding and dying for you. Then, from the foot of the cross, look at the Old Testament. The Old Testament can only be understood from the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ.

As for the statement made in that long essay about people slaughtering others in the name of God, it is also imperative that you NOT judge God by everybody who claims to act in his name and according to his will. Lots of people will make that claim to justify what they're doing when, in reality, God isn't leading them at all. In fact, God is disgusted by them!

Bear in mind that anybody can call himself a Christian, but not everyone who claims to be a follower of God really is. Again, I urge you to look at Jesus Christ. Keep your eyes on him, who he is, what he has done. What he has done is this: he died for everyone, even the most vile serial rapist and murderer, that no one should perish. Those who perish are the ones who reject God and that's their choice. People have to take responsbility for their own failures when they are given every chance to be blessed by God. If they reject God, then it is not God's fault, is it? Remember that true love must be given out of choice, not coerced. Therefore, God doesn't make people love him. They must choose that.

God doesn't make any mistakes. He knows who is going to change and who isn't. Therefore, the people he punished got what they deserved. The wonderful thing is that those who come to God with humble hearts and open hands to receive his gift of salvation will NOT get what they deserve because God will be merciful. Mercy is God NOT giving us what we deserve, that is, death because of our sin. Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve, that is, forgiveness of our sin and eternal life in heaven.

My apologies for writing a post that is almost as long as the opening one, but I hope that helps those of you who are non-Christians to better understand this issue.

[Dilettante]

Overcomer wrote:

Consider this: Let's say that you tell Osama bin Laden that he is NOT to send any more of his murderers anywhere in the world to do anybody harm. You tell him that, if he changes his ways and stops his terrorization, you will welcome him with open arms. You will forgive him and bless him. You also tell him that, if he doesn't change his ways, you will have to take action against him because you can't have him running around, training killers and taking more innocent lives. You tell him that, if he won't stop, you will either imprison or kill him

If the man refuses to listen and persists in his murderous ways, are you wrong in capturing him and carrying out exactly what you have told him you would do?

I totally agree. However, the main problem here is that Osama already thinks he is carrying out God's will by slaughtering Americans, who, in his view, have been warned time and again to stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs and therefore have "earned divine punishment". That's probably how he would see it.

I can understand that someone who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and who is not filled with the Holy Spirit can pick up a Bible and open a page in the Old Testament that speaks about God passing judgement on people and not understand it.

But isn't there a certain degree of circularity involved in this argument? It seems that, in order to read the Bible correctly you have to have a personal relationship with Christ. But the only way (at least according to many in this forum) to develop such a relationship is to read the Bible correctly. How do you break the circle?

The wonderful thing is that those who come to God with humble hearts and open hands to receive his gift of salvation will NOT get what they deserve because God will be merciful. Mercy is God NOT giving us what we deserve, that is, death because of our sin. Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve, that is, forgiveness of our sin and eternal life in heaven.

You seem to have a very negative view of humanity. Humans are certainly capable of the worst, but can also behave altruistically and show heroism and self-sacrifice at times.

[bernee51]

First of all, when God says don't do something, he is saying don't do that because it will hurt you and I don't want you to be hurt. In other words, he says don't do this and don't do that out of love as a parent tells a small child not to put his hand in on the stove burner when it's hot.

I have a problem with the image of any god as a paternalistic entity. What you are doing is reducing 'spirit' to an anthropomorphic analogy that detracts from the supposed glory that is your god.

Thirdly, God always gives many chances to people to change their ways and do as he has asked. You can see that time and time again in the Old Testament, this pattern of God telling people what is best for them, people refusing to listen to him and disobeying him, him clearly explaining to them time and time again what will happen if they persist in their sin.

Again we have a 'father knows best' scenario - except in the case of the OT this particular father kills the disobedient. An excellent role model for the next example you bring up

If the man refuses to listen and persists in his murderous ways, are you wrong in capturing him and carrying out exactly what you have told him you would do?

Muslims of the ilk of Bin Laden are doing exactly as they interpret Allah to direct. This is the same sort of medieval behaviour that brought about such atrocities as the crusades, the inquisition, the destruction of native cultures worldwide etc. It is exactly the behaviour that leads some to bomb abortion clinics.

All is directed by an interpretation of the supposed word of god

Now think about God who created man to be in a loving relationship with him. But man broke that relationship by following the devil. God could just let man go, but he loves him and wants to re-establish that relationship.

A 'relationship' has two sides to it. Lets' say the god is a constant. You, however, are an individual, and an individual that changes from moment to moment. As is, for example, RevJP. Your relationship with god is different now, right now, than it was when you typed this post. Your's and the Rev's relationship can never be the same. Who's is right?

He warned the pagan nations and he warned the Israelites, telling them what he wanted them to do and making it clear to them that, if they failed to stop their sinning then he would act. And yes, sometimes that meant killing some people and imprisoning others.

Believers in monotheism the world over are still carrying out thisd sort of behaviour are they not? Is your god directing them to do it?

I can understand that someone who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and who is not filled with the Holy Spirit can pick up a Bible and open a page in the Old Testament that speaks about God passing judgement on people and not understand it

You seem to have no idea how ridiculous such a pre-rational statement appears. In order to have a relationship with Jesus one must be filled with the holy spirit. in order to be filled with the holy spirit one must understand what is written in the bible, in order to understand what is written in the bible one must be filled with the holy spirit and have a relationship with Jesus.

...it is also imperative that you NOT judge God by everybody who claims to act in his name and according to his will. Lots of people will make that claim to justify what they're doing when, in reality, God isn't leading them at all. In fact, God is disgusted by them!

Yet we are to believe you when you judge god to be digusted. Why should we bother? You are being totally self contradictory.

Bear in mind that anybody can call himself a Christian, but not everyone who claims to be a follower of God really is.

There you go - being judgemental again.

My apologies for writing a post that is almost as long as the opening one, but I hope that helps those of you who are non-Christians to better understand this issue.

No need to apologise and no, you post did nothing to facilitate any justification for the maintenance of pre-rational mythical belief systems no matter what or who the god focus is.

[Scottey]

I would just like to say, as a christian, I agree with Cre8 100%. Everything he stated was true and biblically accurate. I would like to add to it just one more thing that he didn't touch on.

So why does God do what He does? Why did He create us, the Earth, Heaven, and Hell? Why does He save some and allow others burn in hell? Why does He allow sin? Why does He allow evil?

It is all for HIS glory. Everything! God is a selfish God, and rightly so! He desires to be glorified through love and obedience. He also DESERVES to be glorified. He is the most amazing being. The Most High. It is easy to think that God is all about me. He does love me as my Father and my Savior, BUT it is still ALL ABOUT GOD.

Cre8, that was an incredible post. Are you a Christian? Your knowledge of the bible is admirable and your being able to word your (and the bible's) view so clearly. I think we'd get along.

God Bless,
Scottey

[melikio]

It is all for HIS glory. Everything! God is a selfish God, and rightly so! He desires to be glorified through love and obedience. He also DESERVES to be glorified. He is the most amazing being. The Most High. It is easy to think that God is all about me. He does love me as my Father and my Savior, BUT it is still ALL ABOUT GOD.

This MAY all be true, but as always, TRULY believing it involves "faith".

I agree that SOME truths are self-evident, but few listed above are adhered to without at least some measure of indoctrination or conditioning. And again, not that such teachings may not be true, but that accepting them as truth, really isn't something a person can actually prove... unless there is FAITH that the Bible is completely true.

I was raised as a Christian, and I was/am one to wonder about or question things; I understood why atheists and agnostics DID ask the same questions, which some "Christians" silently and nobly struggle with.

And as someome above, implied that a person can take on certain "labels" without truly being dedicated to them, so it goes with the foundational statements of faith some make from the Bible.

The truth is, we can all say things that an audience will likely agree upon (if we know that audience), but whether we are 100% sold upon that which we could or should "say", is contingent upon the heart, mind and personal experiences of the individual. I believe in God, but personally this is exactly where I believe that ignoring or missing that "contingency" is where MANY overstep their actual KNOWLEDGE and/or AUTHORITY.

They overstep, because somewhere in the mix of reality, they move from HOLDING their BELIEFS to believing they must ENFORCE what they believe. And despite one's "beliefs", this is where the problems related to religion, the Bible and Christianity tend to come to a head; not only amongst believers and unbelievers... but ALL people in between.

Personally, I "doubt" that such conflicts come from God (or the Creator) of this reality. Also, I think that people are typically more dogmatic toward others (in their beliefs), than love dictates or encourages. For God may indeed KILL us ALL, in His way... but my "faith" and spiritual intuition tell me that God is not one who would wantonly do something like hold up a baby by its arm, and blow a hole in its belly with a 357 magnum pistol. But that IS the "God" so many describe and convey in their actions as "believers".

The opening post is simply awesome; but it doesn't necessarily ring true to the average, questioning human being. Even those who can read/reason well enough to fathom most of what the author has said, can and will have questions or doubts which the answers to reside within the realm of "faith". But such faith is typically proprietary, not absolutely universal.

Still, I think that love (agape; 1Cor13) allows for a type of testing and learning that cannot be substituted for with mere knowledge or law. For example, as an American I understand clearly that LAWS and knowledge of those laws exist, but that my perception of being an American is not based soley upon written law. There are perceptions that come from various things surrounding the legal reality of my citizenship. And although I have indeed learned the meaning behind the nation's Supreme Law, my perception of the very same is not exactly that of other citizens.

I believe that which is learned/studied from the Bible, has a similar effect upon human beings. It is indeed a GOOD BOOK, but I'll challenge the concept that it is the PERFECT or UN-RETOUCHED "Word of God".

-Mel-