I do feel it pertinent to tell of the origin of justice as described by Glaucon in Plato's Republic:
"...And so when men have both done and suffered injustice and have had the experience of both, not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other, they think they had better agree amongst themselves to have neither; hence there arise laws and mutual covenants; and that which is ordained by law is determined by them lawful and just....justice; it is a mean or compromise...and justice, being at the middle point, is tolerated not as good, but as the lesser evil, and honored by reason of the inability of men to do injustice."
I bring up the question "what is justice". These are questions that need to be answered:
1. Should justice be blind?
2. What is a "just law"?
3. Where lies the balance or "middle point" as described in the excerpt of Plato's Republic? Or, to rephrase, what should supreme justice be like?
4. What is a "just punishment"?
Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
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Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #1[font=Georgia]The wisest knowledge is knowing you know nothing - Socrates
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #2First, let me say that this is a good debate topic.
If by blind you mean that justice should be applied fairly regardless of skin color, sexual orientation, gender and age; then I say yes.JoshB wrote:1. Should justice be blind?
A law that has the consent of the abiding people, was created and drafted in an open dialouge, and does not inhibit any of the people's primary freedoms or civil rights.JoshB wrote:2. What is a "just law"?
A punishment that is equivalent to the crime committed, and was determined based solely on crimes of the person.JoshB wrote:4. What is a "just punishment"?
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #3Im glad you think soWinePusher wrote: First, let me say that this is a good debate topic.

But if there is a case against a group that is oppressed and harassed greatly by the prosecuting group (take examples from Mexico's high and low class), should justice serve blindly or with a bias towards the oppressed group? For example, a court ruling on a recent murder on a genocidal war-lord.WinePusher wrote:If by blind you mean that justice should be applied fairly regardless of skin color, sexual orientation, gender and age; then I say yes.
So what about a law saying its legal to fornicate in the streets? Is it merely a just law if all agree to it, passed through open dialouge, and doesn't abridge a freedom or civil right?WinePusher wrote:A law that has the consent of the abiding people, was created and drafted in an open dialouge, and does not inhibit any of the people's primary freedoms or civil rights.
So a rapist should be raped as equivalent response to the crime?WinePusher wrote:A punishment that is equivalent to the crime committed, and was determined based solely on crimes of the person.
[font=Georgia]The wisest knowledge is knowing you know nothing - Socrates
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #4WinePusher wrote: First, let me say that this is a good debate topic.
I look foward to the others.JoshB wrote:Im glad you think soThere are 5 more where that came from. Tell your friends.
WinePusher wrote:If by blind you mean that justice should be applied fairly regardless of skin color, sexual orientation, gender and age; then I say yes.
I do not agree that Hispanics and other minority groups are treated unfairly under the law. Just look at the New Haven Firefighters case and the lack of prosecution aganist black panthar indimidators to see the exact opposite. Justice should not be applied less strictly on those who are considered "oppressed" groups.JoshB wrote:But if there is a case against a group that is oppressed and harassed greatly by the prosecuting group (take examples from Mexico's high and low class), should justice serve blindly or with a bias towards the oppressed group? For example, a court ruling on a recent murder on a genocidal war-lord.
WinePusher wrote:A law that has the consent of the abiding people, was created and drafted in an open dialouge, and does not inhibit any of the people's primary freedoms or civil rights.
Well, this is getting into very legal technical stuff because fornicating on the streets is imposing sexual views on others who may not wish to see them. But yes, I stand by what I said, it is a just law if it is passed through open dialouge and doesn't abridge freedom.JoshB wrote:So what about a law saying its legal to fornicate in the streets? Is it merely a just law if all agree to it, passed through open dialouge, and doesn't abridge a freedom or civil right?
WinePusher wrote:A punishment that is equivalent to the crime committed, and was determined based solely on crimes of the person.
No, as the crime beng punished is rape so it would be ironic and hypocritical to punish a crime with another crime. I mean that a traffic law violator shouldn't be imprisoned for life and a serial killer shouldn't have to pay a monentary fine.JoshB wrote:So a rapist should be raped as equivalent response to the crime?
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #5I would like to say that I meant the judicial system IN Mexico...WinePusher wrote:I do not agree that Hispanics and other minority groups are treated unfairly under the law. Just look at the New Haven Firefighters case and the lack of prosecution aganist black panthar indimidators to see the exact opposite. Justice should not be applied less strictly on those who are considered "oppressed" groups.
And I do want feedback on my last hypothetical. Would you charge someone with murder for killing a genocidal war-lord?
So you would allow it if it was passed under those conditions? Isn't this implying that "just laws" are relative?WinePusher wrote:Well, this is getting into very legal technical stuff because fornicating on the streets is imposing sexual views on others who may not wish to see them. But yes, I stand by what I said, it is a just law if it is passed through open dialouge and doesn't abridge freedom.
Your saying that the response should be imprisonment proportional to the crime committed?WinePusher wrote:No, as the crime beng punished is rape so it would be ironic and hypocritical to punish a crime with another crime. I mean that a traffic law violator shouldn't be imprisoned for life and a serial killer shouldn't have to pay a monentary fine.
[font=Georgia]The wisest knowledge is knowing you know nothing - Socrates
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #6What is deemed 'just' must be equitable. Equity is the equalizer of all matters in controversy. Equitable principles are those which balance circumstances with fairness regardless of status, creed,color, gender or ethnicity and is, in essence, blind'. A 'just' law is that which is agreed upon by the majority of the people of a society so long as it's provisions to not violate the rights of the minority. Punishment must be equated to the degree of harm caused and the intention of the wrongdoer; the greater the harm and more evil the intention, the greater the punishment. The symbol of justice is apt; the blindfolded lady balancing scales.JoshB wrote:I do feel it pertinent to tell of the origin of justice as described by Glaucon in Plato's Republic:
"...And so when men have both done and suffered injustice and have had the experience of both, not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other, they think they had better agree amongst themselves to have neither; hence there arise laws and mutual covenants; and that which is ordained by law is determined by them lawful and just....justice; it is a mean or compromise...and justice, being at the middle point, is tolerated not as good, but as the lesser evil, and honored by reason of the inability of men to do injustice."
I bring up the question "what is justice". These are questions that need to be answered:
1. Should justice be blind?
2. What is a "just law"?
3. Where lies the balance or "middle point" as described in the excerpt of Plato's Republic? Or, to rephrase, what should supreme justice be like?
4. What is a "just punishment"?
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #7So there is a definite form of justice? As in justice has to be blind and balanced in order to be justice?Flail wrote: What is deemed 'just' must be equitable. Equity is the equalizer of all matters in controversy. Equitable principles are those which balance circumstances with fairness regardless of status, creed,color, gender or ethnicity and is, in essence, blind'. A 'just' law is that which is agreed upon by the majority of the people of a society so long as it's provisions to not violate the rights of the minority. Punishment must be equated to the degree of harm caused and the intention of the wrongdoer; the greater the harm and more evil the intention, the greater the punishment. The symbol of justice is apt; the blindfolded lady balancing scales.
And I want feedback on my hypothetical: For a man who kills a genocidal war-lord, should we charge him with the sentence murder carries?
And on another note, what sentence should murder carry? What is a "just sentence"?
[font=Georgia]The wisest knowledge is knowing you know nothing - Socrates
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Reputable or not, he has the right to speak. Reputable or not, we can criticize him.[/font]
Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #8Well, my lack of knowledge of the mexican judicial system is inadequate, so I won't comment on thatJoshB wrote:I would like to say that I meant the judicial system IN Mexico...
Well, thats a difficult question. I don't think that it is permissable for one to take it into their own hands and decide that killing a genocidal war lord is a decision they are capable of doing. There was a House episode that captured this, where Chase killed a patient who was an african genocidal dictator, but as for my opinion, I don't know.JoshB wrote:And I do want feedback on my last hypothetical. Would you charge someone with murder for killing a genocidal war-lord?
Sure, all laws are developed based on their cultural influences.WinePusher wrote:So you would allow it if it was passed under those conditions? Isn't this implying that "just laws" are relative?
Absolutly. Btw, where are the other questions??????JoshB wrote:Your saying that the response should be imprisonment proportional to the crime committed?
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Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #9Blind is a metaphor. Justice is blind, is merely another way of saying that to be just is to be impartial. A just rule is one which applies to everyone equally in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, male and female. That our societies be just is a cornerstone of Enlightenment thinking. Christianity made remarkable progress towards the adoption of this kind of justice, but in my opinion fell short of the mark. The Christian God is not a just God and historically the Christian experience when in power, has not been one of blind justice.JoshB wrote: 1. Should justice be blind?
A just law is an ideal to strive for. It probably cannot be perfectly attained, life being as complex as it is. However, we can continually strive to make what we have more just.JoshB wrote: 2. What is a "just law"?
Justice is a purely human concept. While it is very useful in the ordering of our societies, it would be a mistake to expect to see anything like justice in the natural universe or to project the concept to the supernatural. We learn two fundamentally important ethical principles in kindergarten. Empathy - the other person's feelings are as real and as important as mine. Fairness - the rules apply equally to everyone. These two principles are the underpinning of every well functioning society.JoshB wrote: 3. Where lies the balance or "middle point" as described in the excerpt of Plato's Republic? Or, to rephrase, what should supreme justice be like?
Any punishment which is either vindictive or retributive, in my view cannot be just.JoshB wrote: 4. What is a "just punishment"?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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Re: Six Socratic Questions: Question #1: What is Justice?
Post #10I tend to think justice is based in our relationships and extended to our cultures.McCulloch wrote:Blind is a metaphor. Justice is blind, is merely another way of saying that to be just is to be impartial. A just rule is one which applies to everyone equally in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, male and female. That our societies be just is a cornerstone of Enlightenment thinking. Christianity made remarkable progress towards the adoption of this kind of justice, but in my opinion fell short of the mark. The Christian God is not a just God and historically the Christian experience when in power, has not been one of blind justice.JoshB wrote: 1. Should justice be blind?
A just law is an ideal to strive for. It probably cannot be perfectly attained, life being as complex as it is. However, we can continually strive to make what we have more just.JoshB wrote: 2. What is a "just law"?
Justice is a purely human concept. While it is very useful in the ordering of our societies, it would be a mistake to expect to see anything like justice in the natural universe or to project the concept to the supernatural. We learn two fundamentally important ethical principles in kindergarten. Empathy - the other person's feelings are as real and as important as mine. Fairness - the rules apply equally to everyone. These two principles are the underpinning of every well functioning society.JoshB wrote: 3. Where lies the balance or "middle point" as described in the excerpt of Plato's Republic? Or, to rephrase, what should supreme justice be like?
Any punishment which is either vindictive or retributive, in my view cannot be just.JoshB wrote: 4. What is a "just punishment"?
Reciprocal altruism has has an other side called justice or fairness to altruism.
We can see it in other animals that are social.
Robert Wright tells a story where one chimps or ape was getting beat up on and trying to get help from its companion. The other didn't respond so it went after his friend for failing to help now that is justice. Then there is kin selection.