What triggers atheism?

[harvey1]

I've been thinking about this subject lately because some atheists on this board said at one time they were a Christian. Then I got to wondering, what would bring a Christian to the point to where they no longer believed in God?

In Christianity, the scriptures are very clear on what brings such a person to that point:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen

This verse in Romans 1 clearly sums up what many Christians believe about so-called Christians who turn away from believing in God. The particular verse that is emphasized is that atheism is in response to:

• not glorifying God
• not giving God thanks
• thinking became futile
• their foolish hearts were darkened
• exchanged the truth of God for a lie
• began worshipping the universe rather than God

When you look at that list, the one that sticks out the most is that their "thinking became futile." That is, "thinking" in Greek is better translated as "disputing within themselves," or "questioning what is true." And, "futile" is translated as vain, empty, or foolish. Hence, they began a line of inquiry within themselves that they started doubting their beliefs in a vain and empty kind of reasoning. That is, I translate it as, "their thinking began to consider meaninglessness as meaningful."

I think that is right on the money. In all my experience with people who became atheists (which seems like the majority of atheists, although I'm not sure), what seems to be the case universally is that meaninglessness became somehow a meaningful way to think for them. So, instead of seeing purpose in creation, they began to see it as meaningless. Somehow, this soon developed into a line of thought where they "began to worship the universe rather than God."

So, what evil lurks at that point when you see meaninglessness as meaningful? In my mind, it's as Paul stated: "they claimed to be wise, they became fools." In other words, they were lured away from God by the appeal of wisdom. The same reason why Eve took the forbidden fruit from the serpent. The desire for wisdom, if not tempered with the desire to give God glory, is a subtle means by which a Christian can become at odds with God.

Therefore, here's my question. Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening? I'd like to understand what causes someone from a natural tendency to be open-minded about the causes of the universe, to be very narrow-minded about what can't be the cause.

[Nyril]

Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening?

Wrong. Atheism is default mode.

[harvey1]

Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening?

Wrong. Atheism is default mode.

Funny, when I approach a problem that I don't know the answer, the first thing I say is that I don't know. I don't assume the negative of what most people think is the right answer.

[spetey]

Aww, Harvey, what are you trying to get away with here?

We know you think atheists are foolish and that their hearts are darkened. And it's no huge surprise that according to the Bible, people who don't believe in the Bible are foolish people with dark hearts. No doubt there are many scriptures from Greek mythology, Hinduism, etc according to which non-believers in those texts are foolish and their hearts dark. (If not, then I applaud those other texts for not being dogmatic and transparently proselytory.)

You recognize that we atheists did some thinking in order to change our minds. But for some reason in this post you seem to assume that the thinking or "inner disputation" that people do to lead them to atheism is "a vain and empty kind of reasoning". But why do you assume this? To us the reasoning looks very good--so good that we actually changed our minds about a belief that in many cases was very important to us. As you well know, I think there are a number of threads on this forum that give good reasons for being an atheist. Consider here, and here, and also here and here, just for starters.

Even if you had never heard atheists' reasons for their positions, it would be drastically uncharitable of you to assume ahead of time that our reasoning must be "vain and empty". Suppose you're a scientist and you had just heard about someone who published a competing theory to yours. Would you assume ahead of time that the author's reasoning must be "vain and empty", since it disagrees with your view? Or would you look and see what those reasons are? Not to do so would be horribly dogmatic and demonstrate a closed mind--wouldn't you agree?

So even without hearing our reasons, it would be irresponsible and insulting to assume that they are poor. But after hearing our reasons--as I know you have, Harvey--it is grasping at straws (not to mention being even more insulting and irresponsible) to respond merely with "those atheists do such empty and vain reasoning." This doesn't count as a response to our reasons. It is mere rhetoric. If you think our reasoning is poor, you have to try to show us why--just as we atheists on this forum are trying to show you why we think your reasoning is mistaken.

Suppose, for example, you are that scientist again, and you eventually brought yourself to read that book detailing the competing theory. It's no good to put it down and say just that "This author reasons poorly! According to my theory she is wrong, so she must be foolish with a dark heart. What could make someone reason so emptily?" If you find you have a hard time saying exactly what mistakes the author committed--if you can't give reasons against the view--then you should seriously consider the idea that the competing view is correct after all, even if you don't like to be wrong. That's especially the case if the competing view gives good reasons to think your view is incorrect.

If you still think that the existence of a god would give life special "meaning", and that furthermore the fact that we'd like to have meaning is a reason to believe in God, I'd like to hear your reasons for this position in this thread, where there are arguments for the opposite conclusions.


spetey

[Overcomer]

I've been thinking about this subject lately because some atheists on this board said at one time they were a Christian. Then I got to wondering, what would bring a Christian to the point to where they no longer believed in God?

No atheist was ever a Christian. To be a Christian is to be in a relationship with God in the person of Jesus Christ through the infilling of the Holy Spirit. A Christian knows the Lord personally the way he or she knows his father, sister, friend. If a person has an intimate relationship with somebody, then that person CANNOT suddenly decide that the one he's in a relationship with doesn't exist. It just isn't possible unless the person gets knocked on the head and has amnesia like in a soap opera!

With atheists who say they were once Christians, you'll find that they mean that they used to attend a Christian church and give some credence to what was being said. However, attending a Christian church and following its rules doesn't make a person a Christian. I like to use the following analogy:

You can sit in a chicken coop, cluck and eat chicken feed, but that doesn't make you a chicken.

You can sit in a church, sing the hymns and listen to the sermon, but that doesn't make you a Christian.

There are certainly people who have left the church because they are angry with God because of things that have happened in their lives, things like losing a child or having their marriage fail, etc. They are disappointed with God, but they don't deny that he exists.

Any atheist who says he used to be a Christian was a Christian in name only because a real Christian knows Christ personally. What does it mean to know Christ personally? It means being filled with the Holy Spirit and having that Spirit speak to your spirit. It means feeling the presence of God, having him elucidate Scripture for you, fill you with his love. It means becoming a new person empowered to resist temptation and overcome sin, undergoing a process of sanctification, fellowshipping with the Lord, enjoying his presence, hearing his voice.

There is only one thing that keeps people from knowing God. That's sin. It's stated best in John 3:19-21 which reads:

"Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds wil be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I remember reading Huxley's comment on why he was an atheist. He said he didn't want there to be a God because he loved his sins too much to part with them.

I think that sums it up really well.

Good question, Harvey. Thanks for asking it.

[Dilettante]

Overcomer wrote:

No atheist was ever a Christian. To be a Christian is to be in a relationship with God in the person of Jesus Christ through the infilling of the Holy Spirit. A Christian knows the Lord personally the way he or she knows his father, sister, friend. If a person has an intimate relationship with somebody, then that person CANNOT suddenly decide that the one he's in a relationship with doesn't exist. It just isn't possible unless the person gets knocked on the head and has amnesia like in a soap opera!

Hmm...Overcomer, that is not really fair. You are using a question-begging definition. It's as if someone says "true love never ends in divorce" and when you point out a case where two people who started out loving each other but then got divorced, he says that theirs was not true love... using as "evidence" the fact that they got divorced. Your argument looks like this:
"Christians are defined as a kind of people who never abandon the Christian religion. Therefore, a Christian will never abandon the Christian religion."
Clearly this is not an argument but a (questionable) definition.

("True love" example taken from T. Edward Damer)

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

To be a Christian is to be in a relationship with God in the person of Jesus Christ through the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I think it can be modified a bit

"To be a christian is to BELIEVE that god,holy spirit and jesus EXIST and CLAIM to have a PERCEIVED relationship with god through jesus through the PERCEIVED filling of the holy spirit"

[trencacloscas]

No atheist was ever a Christian.

Sorry to differ. I was once a Christian. Then, after a process, I opened my eyes to the universe and the whole religion thing appeared so absurd to me than I can hardly realize how I once believed such nonsense. No offence intended, please. I just point out my experience and give my testimony.

[bernee51]

...here's my question. Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening?

For me, atheism is the exact oppsite - it is a positive search, through meditation and a self-enquiry, into the meaning of life. It is not blind acceptance of some supernatural fantasy as a default answer.

I'd like to understand what causes someone from a natural tendency to be open-minded about the causes of the universe, to be very narrow-minded about what can't be the cause.

I am an atheist yet totally open minded. My view is that is you, who see no alternative than the supernatural, who are close minded.

[bernee51]

No atheist was ever a Christian. To be a Christian is to be in a relationship with God in the person of Jesus Christ through the infilling of the Holy Spirit. ...
With atheists who say they were once Christians, you'll find that they mean that they used to attend a Christian church and give some credence to what was being said. However, attending a Christian church and following its rules doesn't make a person a Christian.

Oh dear - again we run into the "True Christian" (TM) dilemma.

I never cease to be amazed by the arrogance often displayed by those who claim to be a "True Christian" (TM) and anyone else who once was a christian and has moved on from that mythology couldn't possibly have been a "True Christian" (TM) because if they were they would still be. They seem to think that being a "True Christian" (TM) is some kind of default position that once attained can never be lost. If they have lost it well they obviously never had it.

You can sit in a chicken coop, cluck and eat chicken feed, but that doesn't make you a chicken.

You can sit in a church, sing the hymns and listen to the sermon, but that doesn't make you a Christian.

Interesting analogy...I could comment...but I won't.

There are certainly people who have left the church because they are angry with God because of things that have happened in their lives, things like losing a child or having their marriage fail, etc. They are disappointed with God, but they don't deny that he exists.

Another of the fallacies the "True Christian" (TM) likes to perpertrate. The person who rejects god is obviously angry at god for some apparent wrong that has happened in their life. They cannot countenance the fact that people can wake up to the myth that is god and don't so much reject him but come to the conclusion that it is in fact a myth

Any atheist who says he used to be a Christian was a Christian in name only because a real Christian knows Christ personally.

Keep telling yourself this...it is obviously of some importance in providing support for your belief in the mythic.

There is only one thing that keeps people from knowing God. That's sin.

Actually I think the most likely reason is that he/she/it doesn't exist. 'Sin' has nothing to do with it.

I am not a sinner and I don't know your god