The Evidence

[Joshua Patrick]

Islam claims both Jewish and Christian scripture, were both revelations from God, but these holy scriptures became corrupt.

Questions:

1. What proof do you have except the Qu'ran.
2. What time period, did it become corrupt?

What I'm getting at is the message of Christianity, must of become corrupt by the Apostles right at the beginning of Christianity, since the Apostle preached Christ was the Son of God.

But why did these Apostle's suffer so much hardship and died for what they believed in, they even claimed Jesus rose from the dead, and died for what they believed in and we aint talking about 1 person here who corrupted things, but ALOT of people. If Christianity became corrupt, it must of been right from the beginning, and I mean literally from the beginning.

For example, St.Peter was crucified on the Vatican Hill upside down because he declared himself unworthy to die in the same manner as the Lord. He was then buried on Vatican Hill, and excavations under St. Peter’s Basilica have unearthed his tomb.

Why would St.Peter want to die, for a lie?

[realthinker]

Ignorant people have died both in support of and as a result of ignorant causes probably for as long as there has been human society.

Why should religious causes be different than any other?

[bernee51]

Islam claims both Jewish and Christian scripture, were both revelations from God, but these holy scriptures became corrupt.

Questions:

1. What proof do you have except the Qu'ran.
2. What time period, did it become corrupt?

What I'm getting at is the message of Christianity, must of become corrupt by the Apostles right at the beginning of Christianity, since the Apostle preached Christ was the Son of God.

Can you provide an 'uncorrupt' message of christianity?

But why did these Apostle's suffer so much hardship and died for what they believed in, they even claimed Jesus rose from the dead, and died for what they believed in and we aint talking about 1 person here who corrupted things, but ALOT of people. If Christianity became corrupt, it must of been right from the beginning, and I mean literally from the beginning.

Why do suicide bombers blow themselves and others up?

For example, St.Peter was crucified on the Vatican Hill upside down because he declared himself unworthy to die in the same manner as the Lord.

Can you support this as anything more than a claim by the church - a legend?

He was then buried on Vatican Hill, and excavations under St. Peter’s Basilica have unearthed his tomb.

Ditto for the evidence that this is a fact and not a church legend.

Why would St.Peter want to die, for a lie?

Assuming he did die as claimed...his belief that it was the truth does not make it the truth.

[Murad]

Islam claims both Jewish and Christian scripture, were both revelations from God, but these holy scriptures became corrupt.

Questions:

1. What proof do you have except the Qu'ran.

There is a very big misunderstanding from both Christians & some poor informed Muslims regarding what the Quran says.
The new testament is comprised of 4 Gospels supposedly written by the apostles.
*Gospel of Matthew
*Gospel of Mark
*Gospel of Luke
*Gospel of John
Gospel in Arabic is called "Injil".
We muslims believe in the Gospel of Jesus. Not any of the Gospels found in the New Testament.


So what does the Quran say about the "Injil":

(Qur'an 5:46): "And We sent in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Injil, in it is guidance and light, and to authenticate what is present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and lesson for the righteous."

As you can see God gave Jesus the Gospel directly, the Gospel was not a Book, it was a revalation.

When Jesus was preaching the Gospel, he did not go around carrying a large book did he? The Bible tells us:

The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD. (Luke 4:18-19)

The Gospel was a revelation given to him by the Father. It was definetly not a book.

Conclusion:
We don't believe your new testament to be corrupted; because we don't see it as a revelation from God.


However regarding the OT; we muslims believe in the revelation of Moses & soley the revelation of Moses when it comes to Judaism.
But did Moses really write the Pentateuch:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm

[Joshua Patrick]

There is a very big misunderstanding from both Christians & some poor informed Muslims regarding what the Quran says.
The new testament is comprised of 4 Gospels supposedly written by the apostles.
*Gospel of Matthew
*Gospel of Mark
*Gospel of Luke
*Gospel of John
Gospel in Arabic is called "Injil".
We muslims believe in the Gospel of Jesus. Not any of the Gospels found in the New Testament.

Christianity always had the gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke& John, from the beginning it as preached the message of Christ dying on the Cross, and rising up again.

The Apostles preached what Christ told them.

As you can see God gave Jesus the Gospel directly, the Gospel was not a Book, it was a revalation.

I agree that Jesus preached a new revelation, a new convenant. What became Christianity, but what Islam teaches cannot be backed up by historical evidence that the message of Christianity as become corrupt. We are ment to take the word of one single person, named Muhammad, instead of the Apostles who died for what they believed in, its not like revelation of Christianity was already about. The Apostle's were the foundation fathers, if it was a lie, they suffered alot of persecution, by both Judaism, Pagan's and the Roman Empire. Enduring chains, and matyrdom, for a lie the Apostles have apparently made up according to Islam.

Also St.Paul suffered this persecution,

Saul of Tarsus/St.Paul not just as a Jew, but as a Pharisee; not just a Pharisee, but as a Shammaite Pharisee; not just, perhaps, as a Shammaite Pharisee, but as one of the strictest of the strict.
Came to Christianity and his one of its foundation fathers.

[McCulloch]

Christianity always had the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, from the beginning it as preached the message of Christ dying on the Cross, and rising up again.

Jesus and his disciples preached a gospel long before any of the four canonical gospels were written. Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 26:13; Mark 1:14f; Mark 13:10; Luke 3:18; Luke 7:22; Luke 9:6; Luke 16:16; Luke 20:1

[Maseehullah]

Here's an example of how the Bible got corrupted:

The famous story of the "woman who was caught in adultery" as mentioned in the Gospel of John is an example of how the Bible was corrupted, and monks and priests added their own stories that have no basis or foundation

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))

Similarly, the story of Jesus being resurrected and appearing to different disciples and giving them the "great commission" as appears at the end of the Gospel of Mark is another corruption and addition to the text

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

So there's two examples right there of how the Bible was corrupted

[Murad]

I agree that Jesus preached a new revelation, a new convenant. What became Christianity, but what Islam teaches cannot be backed up by historical evidence that the message of Christianity as become corrupt.

We dont need to provide historical evidence because we dont believe your scripture to be a divine revelation. Nethertheless; there are missing verses in the Bible(Just google "Missing verses in the Bible"); also the older Greek manuscripts(in which your NT is derived from) differ from the newer manuscripts. Do your research.

Contrary to your opinion that God exists in a Trinity(a man made doctrine); the Quran strictly warns against people setting up partners with the God of Abraham.
It also directly calls the "Trinity" the most highest blasphemy:

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�[Qur'an 5:17]

We are ment to take the word of one single person, named Muhammad, instead of the Apostles who died for what they believed in, its not like revelation of Christianity was already about. The Apostle's were the foundation fathers, if it was a lie, they suffered alot of persecution, by both Judaism, Pagan's and the Roman Empire. Enduring chains, and matyrdom, for a lie the Apostles have apparently made up according to Islam.

First of all, let me clarify something:

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).

As you can see; unlike Christians who believe Islam is from the Devil; we dont share that exact opinion regarding Christianity; we see it as a religion with righteous believers; although we respectfully do not believe in your doctrines or the Gospels that were written by "Anonymous people at Anonymous places at Anonymous times"

Also St.Paul suffered this persecution,

Saul of Tarsus/St.Paul not just as a Jew, but as a Pharisee; not just a Pharisee, but as a Shammaite Pharisee; not just, perhaps, as a Shammaite Pharisee, but as one of the strictest of the strict.
Came to Christianity and his one of its foundation fathers.

Although i have a very different opinion regarding Paul (because he abolished the Law); i still think he had good intentions.

There are parallels found in all religions. Think of all the hindu's that died for their "Ganesh" & "Krishna". They believed with their heart that these Gods existed; but is that evidence to prove the hindu Gods exist? No.

[Druijf]

Murad, if I am not mistaken there is an Islamic doctrine that Allah will not allow his community to agree on error. Isn't this a bit inconsistent with the Islamic notion of the corruption of the message of Moses and Jesus?

[Murad]

Murad, if I am not mistaken there is an Islamic doctrine that Allah will not allow his community to agree on error. Isn't this a bit inconsistent with the Islamic notion of the corruption of the message of Moses and Jesus?

Not too sure what doctrine your referring to; just remember the main two sects of Islam (Sunni;Shia) differ in some aspects.
If you could give me the name i could help you.