Why would God allow his holy book to be corrupted by man?

zcaz · Post by **zcaz** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:03 pm

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God incarnated and this is evident through comparison ..
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Who saves the world?
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
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The word and God are one
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1

...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
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God is the first and the last
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
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Only God is to be worshipped
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10

While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
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Who is the Messiah?
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 (talking about god being the messiah)

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
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So here is clear cut evidence that Jesus in the Bible indirectly claimed to be God. If you reject this, you would have to believe that God allowed his word to be manipulated by man and or changed his mind when he gave Muhammad his revelation.

Wouldn't it make sense however, that the Bible claims Jesus is the only way to salvation, and Satan being the clever deceiver/copy cat that he is, gave a false revelation to Muhammad with the sole purpose of discrediting Jesus?

With so many Islamic organizations and movements out there hellbent on destroying Christians and Jews alike, it seems as if Islam is a 'wolf in sheeps clothing' where they do have good messages of peace but also a huge following of spiritual and political leaders who claim the Imam Mahdi is alive and is going to help in the uprising of Islam(sounds a lot like the Christian prophesied anti-christ).

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just wondering how Islam is justified in their beliefs that there is an almighty God, yet he allowed his word to be semi-perverted?

SolidSnake · Post by **SolidSnake** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:53 pm

One of the arguments I constantly hear from Islam to try to undermine the faith of the non muslims is that their holy book is full of errors and contradictions. These errors and such "proove" that the books are false and as such have been tampered by man to suit their own agenda.

I feel to add some perspective maybe a muslim will be able to clear up the countless contradictions in their holy book and as such defend its validity, as by their own said logic their book must also now be also flawed and how can such the word of "God" be flawed?

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ This is the link as it is 4am here and I am not in the mood to trawl through the most interesting contradictions to post.

Peace

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:03 pm

SolidSnake wrote:One of the arguments I constantly hear from Islam to try to undermine the faith of the non muslims is that their holy book is full of errors and contradictions. These errors and such "proove" that the books are false and as such have been tampered by man to suit their own agenda.

I feel to add some perspective maybe a muslim will be able to clear up the countless contradictions in their holy book and as such defend its validity, as by their own said logic their book must also now be also flawed and how can such the word of "God" be flawed?

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ This is the link as it is 4am here and I am not in the mood to trawl through the most interesting contradictions to post.

Peace

Answering-Islam eh?

Your contradictions are answered in:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... ranerr.htm

& here are 9 undeniable contradictions in the Bible:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_17.htm

SolidSnake · Post by **SolidSnake** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:50 pm

After skimming through a few of these rebuttals it is still clear to me that again, as with all religions it comes down to personal interpretation, which personally I don't believe counts for anything when trying to poke holes in each others faiths (I am faithless btw...)

One example is where the guy who is defending the "everything made of pairs" because this fits in with science and prooves the quran, yet the way he "prooves" it is by mentioning angels because they are single sex. seriously... that is an answer...!? you know female turkeys can reproduce fertile eggs with out a male... that is a species of two... that has and does reproduce asexually...

My point wasnt so much to try to disprove the quran as it was taken but more to point out that every religion has contradictions and flaws, they shouldn't then say hey your religion has this many contradictions therefore its false... the old glass houses idiom...

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:57 pm

SolidSnake wrote:After skimming through a few of these rebuttals it is still clear to me that again, as with all religions it comes down to personal interpretation, which personally I don't believe counts for anything when trying to poke holes in each others faiths

Actually most alleged contradictions play more with arabic semantics than anything else.

SolidSnake wrote: One example is where the guy who is defending the "everything made of pairs" because this fits in with science and prooves the quran, yet the way he "prooves" it is by mentioning angels because they are single sex. seriously... that is an answer...!? you know female turkeys can reproduce fertile eggs with out a male... that is a species of two... that has and does reproduce asexually...

There are also fish that change gender, the Quranic verse is a generalised statement.

SolidSnake wrote: My point wasnt so much to try to disprove the quran as it was taken but more to point out that every religion has contradictions and flaws, they shouldn't then say hey your religion has this many contradictions therefore its false... the old glass houses idiom...

There are definitely no "Contradictions" in the Quran:

"Will they not, then, try to understand this Quran? Had it come from anyone other than Allah, they would have found in it many an inner contradiction."
(Surah Al-Nisa' 4:82)

What would you consider a "flaw", is it purely subjective or is there an objective method of determining a" flaw"?

SolidSnake · Post by **SolidSnake** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:10 am

The main flaw for me in ALL religions is promoting segregation and the turn or burn philosophy.

On the contradictions I know you wont agree and that is fine but please explain sura 2:62 and then sura 3:85 that seems contradictory to me.

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:54 am

SolidSnake wrote:The main flaw for me in ALL religions is promoting segregation and the turn or burn philosophy.

On the contradictions I know you wont agree and that is fine but please explain sura 2:62 and then sura 3:85 that seems contradictory to me.

The Quran makes it clear that certain Christians & Jews will receive salvation:

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil"
(Quran 5:66)

God also makes it clear:

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
(Quran 3:85)

Any religion other than Islam, will not be accepted, that does not change the fact that certain Christians & Jews will attain salvation by faith/works.

SolidSnake · Post by **SolidSnake** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:47 am

Although the verse quoted sounds partly nice, it still proclaims them as evil. Why is this so if Islam teaches that Christians and Jews will recieve salvation through their good deeds?

If also Christians and Jews will recieve their salvation through their works then why is it important that they follow Islam?

This makes no sense to me, to me the verse implies aslong as they follow their scriptures and laws and are good moral people they will not be sent to hell... So if this is true or holds some truth what is the importance of following any of the religions?? Why can they not just be good people??

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:14 am

SolidSnake wrote:Although the verse quoted sounds partly nice, it still proclaims them as evil. Why is this so if Islam teaches that Christians and Jews will recieve salvation through their good deeds?

It does not proclaim them "as an evil people", it proclaims their belief in God begetting family members as evil & the Jewish rejection of Jesus as evil.
Islam teaches that certain Christians & Jews will attain absolute salvation, infact Christians are described as:

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"
(Quran 5:82)

SolidSnake wrote: If also Christians and Jews will recieve their salvation through their works then why is it important that they follow Islam? This makes no sense to me, to me the verse implies aslong as they follow their scriptures and laws and are good moral people they will not be sent to hell... So if this is true or holds some truth what is the importance of following any of the religions?? Why can they not just be good people??

It is agreed, unlike Christianity, unbelievers in Islam can attain salvation:

Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to GOD alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
(Quran 2:112)

In Islamic Theology, the Quran is the restoration of Tawhid (Absolute Monotheism) & a restoration of scriptural truth:

The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.
[Quran 2:113]

Thus, it has always been important to seek the truth as all the Abrahamic Faiths teach.

SolidSnake · Post by **SolidSnake** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:35 am

If then in Islam the unbeliever can still attain salvation, then again I ask why does Islam and other religions seem so bent on converting those to their respective faith?

If when your time is up and you do meet this "maker", which for the record I don't believe in, if his one concern in wether you get to suffer or not is have you been a good and moral person whats the point in religion?

Why do religions condem those of other faiths and of none often calling for their deaths or subjugation? Doesn't add up to me I'm afraid...

By the way nothing to me seems more arrogant than to say I'm right, the way I live is right, without a creator and a book I cannot make good moral decisions, if you don't subscribe to *religion* you are going to hell.

Murad · Post by **Murad** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:17 am

SolidSnake wrote:If then in Islam the unbeliever can still attain salvation, then again I ask why does Islam and other religions seem so bent on converting those to their respective faith?

I don't know about other religions, but there are no missionary works in Islam. All Islam requires is of a muslim, is to make other people aware of your faith, not to proselytise & go knocking on peoples doors (Unlike JehovahsWitnesses etc...)

SolidSnake wrote: If when your time is up and you do meet this "maker", which for the record I don't believe in, if his one concern in wether you get to suffer or not is have you been a good and moral person whats the point in religion?

Religion directs morality & establishes theological facts, & dwells into what the creator considers a Sin & what he considers an act of virtue. This ofcourse holds no relevance to non-theists but it is absolutely crucial for a theist.

SolidSnake wrote: Why do religions condem those of other faiths and of none often calling for their deaths or subjugation? Doesn't add up to me I'm afraid...

Are you generalising "Religions" as "all religions" or do you solely mean Islam? I am definetely not calling for the death or subjugation of anyone

Infact, the Quran makes it clear:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.
(Quran 49:13)

SolidSnake wrote: By the way nothing to me seems more arrogant than to say I'm right, the way I live is right, without a creator and a book I cannot make good moral decisions, if you don't subscribe to *religion* you are going to hell.

Well SolidSnake, this is basic subjective conflict & there are many atheists on this forum, which if you stick around (I hope you do) you will meet them. I for one do not consider Atheists arrogant, if anything, i happen to find theists more arrogant when it comes down to doctrine & dogma.

We all have a world view, this defines us each as a person. I for one chose Islam & i believe it has fulfilled my life. If atheism fulfills your life & you are sure that there is no God, by all means atheism is perfect for you.