Is paganism on the rise in the West?

[Wootah]

Hi all,

I feel paganism is on the rise in the West. This would be in line with my expectation that, without a Christian foundation, superstition is the natural recourse for creatures such as us that are made to worship. If you don't worship God you will worship something.

Do any atheists find this trend towards superstition and paganism disturbing?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andr ... _bolivian/

The UN considering a rock as living. Surely that is just old school paganism.

[Gunnarr]

I am not a christian, I am just struggling to understand your thought process.

What is it you are trying to show?

[Chase200mph]

I am not a christian, I am just struggling to understand your thought process.

What is it you are trying to show?

Adonis
Attis (and Cybele)
Baal
Bacchus
Balder
Beddru
Devatat
Dionysos
Hermes
Horus
Krishna (or Krsna)
Mithras
Orpheus
Osiris
Tammuz (or Dumuzi)
Thor
Zoroaster
All these gods predate the story of Jesus; all have similarities, while I will leave the debate on whether the story of Jesus copies any one single story more than another up to the fodder of the so called scholars researching these moot points. And they are moot points because the argument is sighted around that one religion must be copied in order for the all the popular Christian beliefs to have been a plagiarisms collectively. While this is a great tactic and topic for a courtroom to address, it has little to do with the use of these very same religious stories being used to create the Christian one.
The first Christian historian makes the connections, and two thousand years of Christian apologies fails to explain them away. When we consider that there are no historical followers of the Christ until the bible creation some three hundred years after the life of Jesus is claimed to have happened more than supports the idea of plagiarisms on its own merits. The main source for the counter observation still claims falsely that the works of Paul and the bible are historical recreations…and they are clearly NOT.
Justine Martyr makes the connection, his multiple apologies attempts to distance the stories, he even blames Lucifer for a deception for the parallels. I can post sources and summaries later if you wish.
The other thing I want to touch on before I go to bed is Christendom condemns itself to being Pagan. Being Pagan has two mainstays according to Christianity. One is that Pagans serve other gods, and that Pagans serve Lucifer. Paganism means a lot more than these two descriptions and neither I nor Christianity is denying this, but for the purpose of my OP, these two are what I am going to touch on here.
ONE, Pagans serve other gods, there are 38000 (approximately) mainstream denominational views and countless smaller factional sub categories found in their doctrinal practices. http://christianity.about.com/gi/o.htm? ... c/WCE.html
These denominations all serve different gods, trinity, non-trinity and so on, some god say they are peaceful, some are not, the O/T warns against serving other gods other than the one true god, the Christian bible says god changes his mind and to follow Jesus. The list is almost without end here….we address this more latter if you wish.
TWO, Morning Star is a Latin name found in the “Hebrew manuscript� where the first Christian translation made by Saint Jerome born around 300 AD who mistakenly translates it as the enemy of god, Lucifer. “The literary activity of St. Jerome, although very prolific, may be summed up under a few principal heads: works on the Bible; theological controversies; historical works; various letters; translations. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm )�.
Then what has yet to be mentioned is the ceremonial usage of astrology, fortune telling, sacrifice’s and so on…this equates to old Paganism and is embellished in both books of the bible. Hope this get you of to a good start; looking forward to posting with you soon,

Have a good night….

[Wootah]

"Christianity is paganism", can you please explain more, as I can not see it.

Answer: Then my friend, it because you have refused to….pick something, anything. Post it, and then I will bring its Pagan/ism influences to light. Though I can honestly say that with so many Christian apologists addressing the issue, and for so long….. I find your response a little suspicious.

You pick something. It would be interesting to read.

[Gunnarr]

As I have stated I am no Christian, but what evidential proof have you that Thor and Balder pre date Christ, this is an aspect of your post I am interested in.

[Chase200mph]

As I have stated I am no Christian, but what evidential proof have you that Thor and Balder pre date Christ, this is an aspect of your post I am interested in.

Answer: Well apologetics that I’ve been reading claims he came latter…they sit an unreliable source in the Wikki. I’ve heard the very same claim made that the Egyptian book of the Dead was created after the Ten Commandments…..this of course is not true. So I will have to get back with you on this and I will leave you with this…. http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/Jesu ... s.htm#Thor
Thor

Thor is the most popular god of the ancient Scandinavian peoples. The spread of his cult is abundantly documented in onomastic evidence (place and proper names). His name is found all over present-day Scandinavia in place-names designating either cult sites or places dedicated to him such as woods, fields, hills, brooks, and lakes. Equally abundant are personal names with Thor- as the first component. About one-fourth of the immigrants to Iceland had such names, according to Landnamabok. The Vikings venerated him as their most powerful god and honored him in their new settlements. Local sources report the worship of Thor by the Norse Invaders of Ireland; Thor's hammer, Mjolinir, appeared on the coinage of the Scandinavian rulers of York in the tenth century AD; there was apparently a temple dedicated to Thor by Varangian Northmen in Kiev in 1046; the Danes settling in Normandy are said to have invoked "Tur."

Artifacts such as Thor's hammer amulets bear witness to the strength and survival of his worship even some time after the conversion to Christianity (eleventh century AD). When Adam of Bremen visited the temple of Uppsala in the eleventh century, he noticed that although a triad of gods -- Odin, Thor, Freyr -- was worshipped there, Thor occupied the central position "because he was the most powerful of them all."

"The [Norse] mythology was orally transmitted in the form of poetry and our knowledge about it is mainly based on the Eddas and other medieval texts written down during and after Christianisation." ("Norse Mythology" from Wikipedia.org)

So we are talking the second millennium AD, again Back to the Future syndrome. What does this mythology have to do with early Christianity?

(Sources: see "Thor" in The Encyclopedia of Religion, and the Wikipedia articles on Thor and Norse Mythology).
Like I said, don’t despair yet, Christian Science isn’t very good science and they have trouble writing down facts and figures while dancing naked with dead chickens around their necks.

[Gunnarr]

This is just information on Thor not how he predates or is a pre cursor to Jesus as is the purpose of your original post on this matter.

On the source there are some errors and discrepancies,

Vikings are not a group of people with a belief structure, they are people from various towns, tribes et al, who go off to steal and rob from weaker people where force and violence can win wealth.

Adam of Bremen, Based his report on Uppsala, on eye witness accounts, he never went there himself.

I only despair at posts that do not answer questions and are mainly copied and pasted from eclectic sites, standing in opposition to something rather than in support of something, and having a constant negative approach, is just about attacking others belief structure whilst saying nothing about your own.

[Chase200mph]

This is just information on Thor not how he predates or is a pre cursor to Jesus as is the purpose of your original post on this matter.

On the source there are some errors and discrepancies,

Vikings are not a group of people with a belief structure, they are people from various towns, tribes et al, who go off to steal and rob from weaker people where force and violence can win wealth.

Adam of Bremen, Based his report on Uppsala, on eye witness accounts, he never went there himself.

I only despair at posts that do not answer questions and are mainly copied and pasted from eclectic sites, standing in opposition to something rather than in support of something, and having a constant negative approach, is just about attacking others belief structure whilst saying nothing about your own.

This sites approach is childlike to say the least, while it does offer a data base of Christian apologies and history (whether real or conceived) that can be made into a side by side comparisons with valid sources. In short, the entire site begs the question and even accepts Paul as a relevant historical source. The same Paul that never met Jesus or even claimed to have done so…..
Thor predates Jesus, the Christian apology is that Jesus is god and lived always in Heaven. I haven’t found a good site for Thor yet…I have skimmed this one finding some of it very interesting http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chri ... ate-jesus/ I am interested in learning more about Loki if you have any good sites to offer on him…: )

Forgive me for being thick, but when you say attacking other beliefs while not posting beliefs of one’s own, were you addressing the site we’re discussing or the fact that I am calling Christians Pagans. See, I am no longer a Christian so the term Pagan isn’t being used as a derogatory fashion. While I do confess that I find the apologies used by Christianity in claiming they are not paralleled to Paganism offensive sometimes. These responses sometimes ends up prompting an abrasive reply’s that I usually wish I hadn’t made. : )

[Gunnarr]

I am about promoting my own religion, not denouncing others.

I see this to many times people leave a religion for their own reasoning and lack of belief in the religion they leave. When they leave they put down their reasoning and expect everyone to follow their example, completely understand them, hail them as insightful and attack their former religion as well. This is childish and a very immature way of dealing with ones own issues.

In this case you have then used sources of a dubious nature, copy and paste drivel posting it almost as your own thoughts. When challenged about sources and the bullish manner you have posted, you then call your own sources childish.

I suggest you find out what your about, find yourself and you will be a lot happier debating in the positive rather than the negative way you are currently.

[Too Few Lions]

Hi all,

I feel paganism is on the rise in the West. This would be in line with my expectation that, without a Christian foundation, superstition is the natural recourse for creatures such as us that are made to worship. If you don't worship God you will worship something.

Do any atheists find this trend towards superstition and paganism disturbing?

No, as I don't see 'paganism' as being any more superstitious than Christianity. Atheism is also on the rise in the west, which suggests that rationalism is possibly more on the rise than superstition.

I also, like many others, wasn't made to worship your god or any other deity, and don't consider the west to be built on a 'Christian foundation'. I live in Europe, and the grim Dark and Middle Ages were the times when this continent was built on a Christian foundation.

Personally I prefer 'pagan' religions to Christianity, as historically they have been more tolerant and life affirming. But I think that the division of Christian and 'pagan' is also a false division in the first place, as pretty much all the ideas of Judaism and Christianity were derived from earlier religions and philosophies.

[Gunnarr]

I am enjoying this thread, it is amusing from 'Chase 200 MPH', who seems to be ignoring this thread now, to 'Too Few Lions' who posts nothing about themselves, but immediately, puts on a post that is poorly thought out.

Is Pagan more superstitious than Christianity, pagan is not a religion it is a blanket term for religions outside of the Abrahamic faiths, There are so many religions under that umbrella term, that to say in comparison to Christianity it is not more superstitious is totally irrational.

Again approaching it objectively what branch of Christianity are we talking here, there are so many to chose from, again to give a credible balance in comparison.

Atheism does in my opinion have at least a standpoint that is for a free mind, but the underlying problem for me is the adherents of this faith in no God or God's is simply this, in my experience most are former religious people who approach Atheism as a rebellion of there religious upbringing, most not all, but it is a common theme.