Shalom,
In Mark 9:43-44, et al, we find Scriptures spoken by Jesus Himself, of an ETERNAL HELL, and the LOST who will enter it, in direct reference to a condition where THEIR (personal pronoun) WORM dieth not. While, the thoughts of an Eternal Hell to many of today's Biblical Scholars and Theologians is rapidly becoming 'politically incorrect', the Word of God begs to differ with them nonetheless.
Mark 9:43 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 (KJV)
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
To this end, the premise of this article is NOT to prove an Eternal HELL, which is self evident from simple Scriptural understanding, but rather to shed light on the Eternal WORN that will exist in this unimaginable place of Eternal Punishment.
It takes a greater work of Scriptural gymnastics hammered on the anvil of disbelief to DISPROVE an Eternal Hell, then the Child like FAITH to accept God's sovereign omnipotent WISDOM and authority.
Many have speculated that these aforementioned WORMS are nothing more than some sort of demonic creatures that will devour the flesh of the damned and doomed mankind during their temporal destruction in the eternal and infernal place of Torment. Meanwhile, it is equally presumed that the Lake of Fire is only designed for Satan, his 1/3 Fallen Cohorts, the man AC, and the False Prophet.
However, this is not at all what Scripture reveals, the Bible states that the Righteous will view the 'carcasses' of those who have transgressed against God in a place where the fire is unquenched and THEIR (personal pronoun) WORN shall NEVER die.
Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
To this end then, WHO are these WORMS that shall NEVER DIE which Jesus reveals in Mk. 9:44, et al?
The following Scriptures makes it perfectly clear by direct language SYMBOLIZING who these ETERNAL WORMS are most likely to be, even Jacob himself was addressed by the Lord as a WORM.
Job 25:6 (KJV)
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psalms 22:6 (KJV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Isaiah 41:14 (KJV)
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
What then can easily be deduced from the above supposition, is that MAN is symbolized by a WORM and respecting Mk. 9:43-44 spoken directly by Jesus Himself, cited above, is referring to the LOST without HOPE in CHRIST.
Therefore, with direct respect to the ETERNAL FLAME, Matt. 25:41 does NOT imply exclusivity with relationship to those who will be deposited into 'Everlasting' Fire.
Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Nowhere in the above Passage is the word ONLY implied with respect to Satan and his Angels... simply PREPARED (made ready). Moreover, this Passage declares that those who have been judged unworthy from among the nations (those on the left hand) will ALSO be cast into the Everlasting Fire.
Meanwhile, Rev.19:20 reveals that the Beast and the False Prophet will be deposited there as well. The Beast and the False Prophet are NOT once mentioned in Matt. 25:41, in exception to exclusivity...for ONLY Satan and his Angels.
Also, Rev. 20:14-15 reveals that subsequent to the Great White Throne Judgment of the DEAD (Second Death) will be deposited in the Everlasting Lake of Fire as well.
To reiterate, in Mk. 9:43-48 Jesus is indeed referring back to the Isaiah prophecy of 66:23-24.
Meanwhile, with respect to the WORM that DIETH NOT. Therefore, if it can shown where something that will NEVER DIE (even Christians are addressed in Scripture relevant to this SAME language - Jn. 11:26, et al.) is indeed NOT INFINITE or Eternal, then you have my undivided attention as well as a realistic defense for your concern, otherwise...
To this end, the KEY to understanding this prophecy is quite simple...those DEAD BODIES who will be in the (their) FIRE that is NOT QUENCED (Eternal Hell) are all those who have transgressed against the LORD:
Isaiah 66:23-24 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Therefore, Jesus WARNS the grammatical antecedents ETERNAL WORM(s) - those transgressing against the LORD - of Mk. 43, 45 and 47, NOT to go to the place of ETERNAL HELL where THEIR Worm Dies NOT.
As such, the antecedent possessive personal pronoun THEIR with respect to the LXX (greek Septuagint), referring to the CARCASES/DEAD BODIES, is in EXACT agreement with Isaiah 66:24 (the Worm that shall NOT DIE - CARCASE) and the ETERNAL WORM that Jesus revealed in Mk. 44, 47, and 48.
"...In this sentence, the greek (in the septuagint, it is presumably the personal pronoun) their refers back to what? The answer is "carcasses" ("dead bodies")."
Moreover, the POSSESSOR of the ETERNAL WORM (Dead Body) is what is 'Spiritually' INSIDE of the Dead Body/Eternal Worm. To this end, when in Job 25:6, Psalms 22:6, and Isaiah 41:14 when God calls man a WORM He was referring to the 'physical body'. However, with respect to natural man there is ALSO a Soul/Spirit that dwells within the 'temporal' WORM.
Meanwhile, it is duely noted that WORMS eat decaying matter, i.e. dead bodies. However, the ETERNAL WORMS that BELONG (Ownership) to those who have transgressed against the LORD, per Scripture, are NOT 'external' consuming worms separate of the carcase, but rather the DEAD BODIES/CARCASES themselves, that will NEVER Die.
Therefore, if the WORM/DEAD BODY is ETERNAL, then so must its HOST OWNER (THEIR) that 'dwells within' be as well. If the OWNER (Spirit/Soul inside of the ETERNAL WORM) was to vanish away, then Eternal Hell would have Eternal Worms/DEAD BODIES with NO OWNERS. Nonetheless, below is what/where these ETERNAL WORMS will originate from - the DEAD BODIES that will NEVER DIE.
Dan. 12:2, Jn. 5:28-29 and Rev. 20:5 makes if perfectly clear that there will be a Resurrection of the DEAD in Sin (the Resurrection of the Damned).
John 5:28 (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Seeing therefore, that the former Carcases of these Damned and Dead resurrected individuals have long since been consumed by other parasites that are/were NOT ETERNAL (natural), then God has/will prepared (created) a NEW BODY for these doomed TRANSGRESSORS as well. Rev. 20:11-15, reveals that the DEAD will come out of their graves (see Jn. 5:28-29 above) and their resurrected DEAD BODIES (newly created - ETERNAL WORMS) will STAND before God to be Judged for THEIR transgressing against the LORD.
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
barney
Is Hell and Those Who Will Go There Eternal?
Moderator: Moderators
Post #2
Hmmm. While I guess if the worm does not die then death is not defeated, which is contrary to other scriptures.
Eternal and hell are English words and do not carry the same meaning as the Greek and Hebrew words used for them.
Eternal in English means without beginning and without end, so tell me how something God prepared is without a beginning?
Eternal and hell are English words and do not carry the same meaning as the Greek and Hebrew words used for them.
Eternal in English means without beginning and without end, so tell me how something God prepared is without a beginning?
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Post #3
Well spotted!pneuma wrote:Hmmm. While I guess if the worm does not die then death is not defeated, which is contrary to other scriptures.
Eternal and hell are English words and do not carry the same meaning as the Greek and Hebrew words used for them.
Eternal in English means without beginning and without end, so tell me how something God prepared is without a beginning?
Actually, although the post throws the word ETERNAL around willy-nilly, the word is not actually mentioned at all in Mark 9: 43, 44 nor in Isaiah 66:24 (no more than the expression "eternal worm"). ETERNAL is however mentione in MATH 25: 41 and is translated from the Greek term "aionios" which, according to my bible encylopedia
EVERLASTING Gr aionios wrote: Greek word ai-on (plural, ai-ones) [...] [a]space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, and also lifetime, life, or age, generation. Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai-on could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning" Insight on the Scripture Vol I p. 57
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barney
Post #4
Shalom pneuma,
Thank you for your kind response.
The phrase 'Where The Worm Dieth Not' is a metaphore for ETERNAL - we must confess that ALL dead will be resurrected and subsequently judged (Rev. 20:12) and those natural bodies that have decayed will have to be reformed, in order to be cast into the dreaded Lake of Fire. Therefore, God will create a body for them where the Worm Dieth NOT.
Death was DEFEATED at the Cross (Rev. 1:18), otherwise there could be NO SALVATION...the man Adam brought death and the man Jesus brought Eternal LIFE.
With respect to your concern regarding the English 'Eternal' greek 'aionios' I submit the following to your Biblical attention and wisdom.
When those guys come knocking DECLARING their newly found understanding that the greek word aion cannot mean ETERNAL/Infinate/etc... I just finished this rebuttal you might find useful for your library.
If the greek PLURAL word aionas (or its grammatical derivatives) is directly ATTACHED to the subject/object of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/Heaven etc., it represents in most cases INFINATE AGES... Ages that just keeps on coming without end? For example,
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, (aionon) immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (aionas) and ever (aionon). Amen.
Hebrews 9:14 (KJV)
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aioniou) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Please consider the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught the Disciples to Pray.
Matthew 6:9 (KJV)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:10 (KJV)
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:13 (KJV)
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever (aionas). Amen.
Is the KINGDOM of God, the POWER of God, and the GLORY of God ETERNAL or FINITE?
In the above Passage the greek aionon/aionas are ATTACHED to God. Therefore, this use of aionon/aionasis here implies ETERNAL. Moreover, Rev. 1:18 Reveals that Jesus is NOW ALIVE for EVERMORE.
Revelation 1:18 (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Meanwhile, Luke 1:33 and Isaiah 9:7 would beg to differ with you. NO END used in direct reference to the Kingdom of Jesus in Lk. 1:33 is NOT aion, but rather the greek words 'ouk estai telos - NOT SHALL BE FINISH' (greek Textus Receptus).
Luke 1:33 (KJV)
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Isaiah 9:7 (KJV)
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Therefore, unless otherwise definably constrained and limited by context, if the PLURAL of AGES is used (aionas) then it is NOT possible to determine the length of the AGE and just how many of the AGES there actually are or have been - Ages of Ages (INFINITY and Eternal by default)?
Meanwhile, it then can be said that the definition of the greek word aion is therefore figuratively LIQUID, and assumes the definition/shape of whatever Contextual Biblical mold into which it is poured.
To this end, if it is ATTACHED to a noun/subject/object that is ETERNAL then its definition becomes ETERNAL. Likewise, if it is ATTACHED to a subject/object that is TEMPORAL then its definition becomes TEMPORAL.
Moreover, the greek word aion or its grammatical derivatives are used, their definition CANNOT be a FIXED meaning, that can be generalized consistently in each and every case where the word appears - it remains LIQUID waiting to poured into a mold, which is determined by the CONTEXT of the Scripture and the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED. The definition of the noun/subject/object actually determines the definition of aion.
Thus, the TIME of the AGE(s) is determined, as stated by the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED. For example, If we are talking about Jesus and His earthly Ministry or the Millennial, then the AGE becomes constrained by the Time frame of this existing AGE we now live in, respectively if the AGE is suggested to be the Millennial reign of Christ, then the Time frame of the AGE becomes one-thousand years.
However, if the AGE(s) is in reference to the ETERNAL existence of the LIVING CHRIST as in Rev. 1:18 the TIME becomes ETERNAL from His death on the Cross (including this Age and the Millennial, but per this particular Scripture not before the Cross - was dead) - Ages of the Ages. God DOUBLES what He CONFIRMS, i.e. I AM that I AM, et.
Revelation 1:18 (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Meanwhile, if we are referring to the ETERNAL INFINITY of GOD Himself, then the TIME of the past/present/future will be the AGE(s), UNLESS otherwise constrained by Scriptural CONTEXT.
Therefore, in one case aion (or its derivatives) may be one SINGLE well defined AGE or it may be ETERNAL - as stated, it depends on the mold it is poured into (the subject/object it is ATTACHED).
Please consider this Scriptural example below and what some who do not think that the greek word 'aion' should be translated to mean ETERNAL, etc.
Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and, in the world (aion) to come, aionios-life."
"Take a look at how the translators swapped "world" for "aion" into in the above verse. However, they were left with an interesting dilemma. They translated aion as world, but they obviously could not stay consistent and translate "aionios" as "worldly." Worldly life? Yikes! So, they got inventive. They stayed with "world," but stretched aionios into "eternal." After all, they had a preconceived doctrine to adhere to."
The resolve to this concern above is in Jn. 3:16, 3:36, et al, which reveals the SINGULAR (aionion - age) ATTACHED to an ETERNAL subject/object - those that believe... This is the ENDLESS Life in union with Christ, referenced by Dr. Vincient. This ETERNAL duration of TIME cannot be denied those who are in Christ and Believe - hence, the singular aionion takes on the Eternal definition (mold) because of the object to which it is ATTACHED (poured into). Moreover, the translated word WORLD in Mk. 30 could easily have been left as the SINGULAR (aioni - AGE). However, when one uses the definition WORLD or AGE it applies to ALL of the Scripturally defined constructs and TIME constraints respecting that World/Age. Therefore, aioni is referring to a PLACE and its prescribed Time, and the respective aionion is referring to a Scripturally defined LIFE and its prescribed Time - BOTH are indeed ETERNAL.
John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (aionion) life.
John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting (aionion) life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Going forward, NO WHERE in the above Passage of Mk. 10:30 does it EVER suggest that the AGE To Come was to be contiguous and immediately sequential to the AGE for which Jesus was currently Ministering. The AGE To Come is to be determined by the antecedent Scriptural Context referencing the KINGDOM OF GOD.
Mark 10:25 (KJV)
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God - NOT the Millennial.
Meanwhile, Dr. Vincient (a source whom many cite on this matter) suggests the following:
"Dr. Vincent had this to say about "eternal life" as it's spoken of in the Bible: - eternal life, which occurs 42 times in the N.T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by . . . (p. 60, vol. IV, Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament) As Dr. Vincent explains, these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached... As Dr. Vincent stated in the quote above, this does NOT preclude some who are raised to live in that kingdom from having "everlasting life" as we commonly understand it..."
Seeing that Dr. Vincent, et. al, do not accept the greek word anion as pertaining to perpetuity/eternity/endlessness, etc., but rather FINITE TIME, WHAT word does HE or yourself for that matter offer as a viable greek substitute for UNENDING TIME, because there are indeed Scriptures that REQUIRE the meaning of ETERNITY (see below). For example, what greek word addresses the PERPETUAL TIME immediately following the Millennial Reign of Christ?
There are two greek words 'aidios/aidiois' used in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 1:6 that do mean Eternity/Eternal. However, seeing that 99.8 percent of the NT employs the greek word 'aion' and its various derivatives, it is then incumbent on us to determine with unquestionable accuracy just what they actually mean with respect to the Scriptures to which they are applied.
Meanwhile, Dr. Vincent emphatically declares... these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... however, he then contradicts himself by stating... I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless... Although, Dr. Vincent OFFERS NO alternate applicable Biblical greek word that would satisfy his mandated ENDLESS Life in union with Christ, clearly revealed by Scripture.
Why then would the greek Biblical Text writers purport grammatical language for subjects and objects to which they had NO grammatical words, i.e. Eternity, IF the greek word aion could not be suggested to be ETERNAL? Moreover, to reiterate Dr. Vincent declares that The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached... What then does the length of the 'aeon' become when attached to descriptive Biblical characteristics of God/Christ/Heaven, etc., (see below) - probably just what earlier greek scholars had correctly determined long before Dr. Vincent... it implies Eternity.
Here is a list of Scriptures that is not exhaustive by any means that applies to the greek word anion with an attached ETERNAL object.
John 6:68 (KJV)
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
1 John 5:11 (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:20 (KJV)
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Ephesians 2:7 (KJV)
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:21 (KJV)
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Galatians 1:5 (KJV)
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 4:20 (KJV)
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 4:18 (KJV)
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 13:21 (KJV)
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
The term for ever and ever is used 46 times in the Old and New Testaments. Not every time is it derived from the same Hebrew or Greek words. That is a small enough number that we can take the time to be a little technical.
We can categorize all of them on the basis of the way they are worded in Hebrew or Greek.
We will begin with a review of the various words used for EVER in theses passages. As the average reader could not read the original words, I will refer to those words by their number in the most common Greek and Hebrew lexicons today, those found in the back of Strongs Concordance. For this reason these numbers are called Strongs numbers.
And under each of these words I will note how that word is used in scripture. Of particular interest to Seventh-day Adventists is the question does EVER mean ETERNITY?
Words Translated Ever in the 46 Passages
Word # 05769 Used 439 times in the Old Testament.
Incidents where it is clear that this word does not denote an eternal volume of time include Genesis 6:4 where it is translated of old. An interesting use is the first use - Genesis 3:22. Here those that eat of the tree of life 'live for ever.' For this reason Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Young's Literal Translation renders 05769 most consistently as age-during. The Rotherham translation renders it as age-abiding and in the past as age-past.
Word # 05703 Used 49 times in the Old Testament.
Incidents where it is clear that it does not denote an eternal volume of time include Hab. 3:6 where the everlasting mountains are scattered by Christs coming. In Amos 1:11 the descendants of Esau are condemned for having kept their anger against their brother for ever. Rotherham often renders it to futurity or perpetually.
The phrase for ever and ever is derived from these two Hebrew words almost every time it shows up in the old Testament. The other three Old Testament occurrences use three other words.
Word # 05331 Isaiah 34:10.
This word is used 43 times in the Old Testament. It is often used in parallel with # 05769 and so should not be much distinguished from it. It has some usages that are unrelated to the question - victory, strength- and is often used in questions and in negatives.
05957 Daniel 2:20; 7:18.
This is the Aramaic of the Hebrew word # 05769. It is used uniquely in Ezra and Daniel where it occurs 20 times in uses very similar to the way that # 05769 is used elsewhere.
05705 Daniel 2:20; 7:18.
This is the Aramaic of the Hebrew word # 05704 (not a typo for # 05703). It is used uniquely in Ezra and Daniel where it occurs 32 times. Only when used in conjunction with # 05957 does it denote ever. In other passages it is translated until season end and in various other ways that designate a limited time.
So these are the five words translated EVER in Old Testament phrases for ever and ever. The word EVER is in the phrase twice and the following graph shows how the phrase is formed in Hebrew/Aramaic.
Formulations of These Five Words Translated For Ever and Ever
05769 05769 I Ch. 16:36; 29:10; Neh. 9:5; Jer. 7:7; 25:5
05769 05703 Ex. 15:18; Ps. 9:5; 10:16; 21:4; 45:6, 17; 48:14; 52:8; 119:44; 145:1, 2, 21; Dan. 12:3; Mic. 4:5; Ps. 111:8; 148:6; Isa. 30:8
05331 05331 Isa. 34:10
05957 05705 05957 Dan. 2:20
05705 05957 05957 Dan. 7:18
As noted initially, we would not in English write eternity and eternity or to everlasting and everlasting. These would seem redundant. We do, however, say for ever and ever and have probably picked this up from the Bible.
But in the Bible it appears that this is no redundancy. The individual words EVER do not, of themselves, necessarily indicate eternity. The habit of using them in reduplication is enough to demonstrate the truthfulness of this assertion. Rotherham and Young's Literal (two of the most literal translations available) translate these two formulas as follows:
Rotherham
05769-05769 one age even to/unto another age even unto age age to age
05769-05703 age-abiding and beyond; futurity, to/unto times age-abiding
perpetually - age abiding
Youngs Literal
05769-05769 from the age [and] unto the age from age even unto age
05769-05703 to the age, and for ever; age-during - and for ever; for a latter dayunto the age; for ever to the age
What Kind of Persons or Things or Events Last For Ever and Ever?
The subjects of these formulas - the persons or objects that were to last for ever and ever are differentiated below. The designation 'A' represents the first formula, 'B' the second. 'B2' represents the reversed order pairs. 'C' and 'D' represent Daniel 2 and 7 respectively.
Jehovah
Jehovah
Blotting Out
Gift of Life
Jehovahs Throne
Jehovahs Praise
Jehovahs Praise
Jehovahs Identity
My Trust in Jehovah
Commandments
Law Keeping
Heavens
Record of Rebellion
Gift of Canaan
Evangelists; Stars
Right-Living
Saints Reign
A I Ch. 16:36; 29:10; Neh. 9:5
B Ex. 5:18; Ps. 10:16
B Ps. 9:5
B Ps. 21:4
B Ps. 45:6
B Ps. 45:17; 145:1, 2, 21
C Dan. 2:20
B Ps. 48:14
B Ps. 52:8
B-2 Ps. 111:8
B Ps. 119:44
B-2 Ps. 148:6
B-2 Isa. 30:8
A Jer. 7:7; 25:5
B Dan. 12:3
B Mic. 4:5
D Dan. 7:18
In summary: The Old Testament formulations translated for ever and ever always refer to Jehovah, His qualities, His work, or the Saints. They are often stated in terms of contrast with the wicked and the works of men - both of which are transitory.
barney
Thank you for your kind response.
The phrase 'Where The Worm Dieth Not' is a metaphore for ETERNAL - we must confess that ALL dead will be resurrected and subsequently judged (Rev. 20:12) and those natural bodies that have decayed will have to be reformed, in order to be cast into the dreaded Lake of Fire. Therefore, God will create a body for them where the Worm Dieth NOT.
Death was DEFEATED at the Cross (Rev. 1:18), otherwise there could be NO SALVATION...the man Adam brought death and the man Jesus brought Eternal LIFE.
With respect to your concern regarding the English 'Eternal' greek 'aionios' I submit the following to your Biblical attention and wisdom.
When those guys come knocking DECLARING their newly found understanding that the greek word aion cannot mean ETERNAL/Infinate/etc... I just finished this rebuttal you might find useful for your library.
If the greek PLURAL word aionas (or its grammatical derivatives) is directly ATTACHED to the subject/object of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/Heaven etc., it represents in most cases INFINATE AGES... Ages that just keeps on coming without end? For example,
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, (aionon) immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (aionas) and ever (aionon). Amen.
Hebrews 9:14 (KJV)
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aioniou) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Please consider the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught the Disciples to Pray.
Matthew 6:9 (KJV)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:10 (KJV)
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:13 (KJV)
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever (aionas). Amen.
Is the KINGDOM of God, the POWER of God, and the GLORY of God ETERNAL or FINITE?
In the above Passage the greek aionon/aionas are ATTACHED to God. Therefore, this use of aionon/aionasis here implies ETERNAL. Moreover, Rev. 1:18 Reveals that Jesus is NOW ALIVE for EVERMORE.
Revelation 1:18 (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Meanwhile, Luke 1:33 and Isaiah 9:7 would beg to differ with you. NO END used in direct reference to the Kingdom of Jesus in Lk. 1:33 is NOT aion, but rather the greek words 'ouk estai telos - NOT SHALL BE FINISH' (greek Textus Receptus).
Luke 1:33 (KJV)
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Isaiah 9:7 (KJV)
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Therefore, unless otherwise definably constrained and limited by context, if the PLURAL of AGES is used (aionas) then it is NOT possible to determine the length of the AGE and just how many of the AGES there actually are or have been - Ages of Ages (INFINITY and Eternal by default)?
Meanwhile, it then can be said that the definition of the greek word aion is therefore figuratively LIQUID, and assumes the definition/shape of whatever Contextual Biblical mold into which it is poured.
To this end, if it is ATTACHED to a noun/subject/object that is ETERNAL then its definition becomes ETERNAL. Likewise, if it is ATTACHED to a subject/object that is TEMPORAL then its definition becomes TEMPORAL.
Moreover, the greek word aion or its grammatical derivatives are used, their definition CANNOT be a FIXED meaning, that can be generalized consistently in each and every case where the word appears - it remains LIQUID waiting to poured into a mold, which is determined by the CONTEXT of the Scripture and the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED. The definition of the noun/subject/object actually determines the definition of aion.
Thus, the TIME of the AGE(s) is determined, as stated by the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED. For example, If we are talking about Jesus and His earthly Ministry or the Millennial, then the AGE becomes constrained by the Time frame of this existing AGE we now live in, respectively if the AGE is suggested to be the Millennial reign of Christ, then the Time frame of the AGE becomes one-thousand years.
However, if the AGE(s) is in reference to the ETERNAL existence of the LIVING CHRIST as in Rev. 1:18 the TIME becomes ETERNAL from His death on the Cross (including this Age and the Millennial, but per this particular Scripture not before the Cross - was dead) - Ages of the Ages. God DOUBLES what He CONFIRMS, i.e. I AM that I AM, et.
Revelation 1:18 (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Meanwhile, if we are referring to the ETERNAL INFINITY of GOD Himself, then the TIME of the past/present/future will be the AGE(s), UNLESS otherwise constrained by Scriptural CONTEXT.
Therefore, in one case aion (or its derivatives) may be one SINGLE well defined AGE or it may be ETERNAL - as stated, it depends on the mold it is poured into (the subject/object it is ATTACHED).
Please consider this Scriptural example below and what some who do not think that the greek word 'aion' should be translated to mean ETERNAL, etc.
Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and, in the world (aion) to come, aionios-life."
"Take a look at how the translators swapped "world" for "aion" into in the above verse. However, they were left with an interesting dilemma. They translated aion as world, but they obviously could not stay consistent and translate "aionios" as "worldly." Worldly life? Yikes! So, they got inventive. They stayed with "world," but stretched aionios into "eternal." After all, they had a preconceived doctrine to adhere to."
The resolve to this concern above is in Jn. 3:16, 3:36, et al, which reveals the SINGULAR (aionion - age) ATTACHED to an ETERNAL subject/object - those that believe... This is the ENDLESS Life in union with Christ, referenced by Dr. Vincient. This ETERNAL duration of TIME cannot be denied those who are in Christ and Believe - hence, the singular aionion takes on the Eternal definition (mold) because of the object to which it is ATTACHED (poured into). Moreover, the translated word WORLD in Mk. 30 could easily have been left as the SINGULAR (aioni - AGE). However, when one uses the definition WORLD or AGE it applies to ALL of the Scripturally defined constructs and TIME constraints respecting that World/Age. Therefore, aioni is referring to a PLACE and its prescribed Time, and the respective aionion is referring to a Scripturally defined LIFE and its prescribed Time - BOTH are indeed ETERNAL.
John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (aionion) life.
John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting (aionion) life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Going forward, NO WHERE in the above Passage of Mk. 10:30 does it EVER suggest that the AGE To Come was to be contiguous and immediately sequential to the AGE for which Jesus was currently Ministering. The AGE To Come is to be determined by the antecedent Scriptural Context referencing the KINGDOM OF GOD.
Mark 10:25 (KJV)
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God - NOT the Millennial.
Meanwhile, Dr. Vincient (a source whom many cite on this matter) suggests the following:
"Dr. Vincent had this to say about "eternal life" as it's spoken of in the Bible: - eternal life, which occurs 42 times in the N.T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by . . . (p. 60, vol. IV, Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament) As Dr. Vincent explains, these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached... As Dr. Vincent stated in the quote above, this does NOT preclude some who are raised to live in that kingdom from having "everlasting life" as we commonly understand it..."
Seeing that Dr. Vincent, et. al, do not accept the greek word anion as pertaining to perpetuity/eternity/endlessness, etc., but rather FINITE TIME, WHAT word does HE or yourself for that matter offer as a viable greek substitute for UNENDING TIME, because there are indeed Scriptures that REQUIRE the meaning of ETERNITY (see below). For example, what greek word addresses the PERPETUAL TIME immediately following the Millennial Reign of Christ?
There are two greek words 'aidios/aidiois' used in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 1:6 that do mean Eternity/Eternal. However, seeing that 99.8 percent of the NT employs the greek word 'aion' and its various derivatives, it is then incumbent on us to determine with unquestionable accuracy just what they actually mean with respect to the Scriptures to which they are applied.
Meanwhile, Dr. Vincent emphatically declares... these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... however, he then contradicts himself by stating... I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless... Although, Dr. Vincent OFFERS NO alternate applicable Biblical greek word that would satisfy his mandated ENDLESS Life in union with Christ, clearly revealed by Scripture.
Why then would the greek Biblical Text writers purport grammatical language for subjects and objects to which they had NO grammatical words, i.e. Eternity, IF the greek word aion could not be suggested to be ETERNAL? Moreover, to reiterate Dr. Vincent declares that The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached... What then does the length of the 'aeon' become when attached to descriptive Biblical characteristics of God/Christ/Heaven, etc., (see below) - probably just what earlier greek scholars had correctly determined long before Dr. Vincent... it implies Eternity.
Here is a list of Scriptures that is not exhaustive by any means that applies to the greek word anion with an attached ETERNAL object.
John 6:68 (KJV)
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
1 John 5:11 (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:20 (KJV)
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Ephesians 2:7 (KJV)
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:21 (KJV)
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Galatians 1:5 (KJV)
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 4:20 (KJV)
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 4:18 (KJV)
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 13:21 (KJV)
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
The term for ever and ever is used 46 times in the Old and New Testaments. Not every time is it derived from the same Hebrew or Greek words. That is a small enough number that we can take the time to be a little technical.
We can categorize all of them on the basis of the way they are worded in Hebrew or Greek.
We will begin with a review of the various words used for EVER in theses passages. As the average reader could not read the original words, I will refer to those words by their number in the most common Greek and Hebrew lexicons today, those found in the back of Strongs Concordance. For this reason these numbers are called Strongs numbers.
And under each of these words I will note how that word is used in scripture. Of particular interest to Seventh-day Adventists is the question does EVER mean ETERNITY?
Words Translated Ever in the 46 Passages
Word # 05769 Used 439 times in the Old Testament.
Incidents where it is clear that this word does not denote an eternal volume of time include Genesis 6:4 where it is translated of old. An interesting use is the first use - Genesis 3:22. Here those that eat of the tree of life 'live for ever.' For this reason Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Young's Literal Translation renders 05769 most consistently as age-during. The Rotherham translation renders it as age-abiding and in the past as age-past.
Word # 05703 Used 49 times in the Old Testament.
Incidents where it is clear that it does not denote an eternal volume of time include Hab. 3:6 where the everlasting mountains are scattered by Christs coming. In Amos 1:11 the descendants of Esau are condemned for having kept their anger against their brother for ever. Rotherham often renders it to futurity or perpetually.
The phrase for ever and ever is derived from these two Hebrew words almost every time it shows up in the old Testament. The other three Old Testament occurrences use three other words.
Word # 05331 Isaiah 34:10.
This word is used 43 times in the Old Testament. It is often used in parallel with # 05769 and so should not be much distinguished from it. It has some usages that are unrelated to the question - victory, strength- and is often used in questions and in negatives.
05957 Daniel 2:20; 7:18.
This is the Aramaic of the Hebrew word # 05769. It is used uniquely in Ezra and Daniel where it occurs 20 times in uses very similar to the way that # 05769 is used elsewhere.
05705 Daniel 2:20; 7:18.
This is the Aramaic of the Hebrew word # 05704 (not a typo for # 05703). It is used uniquely in Ezra and Daniel where it occurs 32 times. Only when used in conjunction with # 05957 does it denote ever. In other passages it is translated until season end and in various other ways that designate a limited time.
So these are the five words translated EVER in Old Testament phrases for ever and ever. The word EVER is in the phrase twice and the following graph shows how the phrase is formed in Hebrew/Aramaic.
Formulations of These Five Words Translated For Ever and Ever
05769 05769 I Ch. 16:36; 29:10; Neh. 9:5; Jer. 7:7; 25:5
05769 05703 Ex. 15:18; Ps. 9:5; 10:16; 21:4; 45:6, 17; 48:14; 52:8; 119:44; 145:1, 2, 21; Dan. 12:3; Mic. 4:5; Ps. 111:8; 148:6; Isa. 30:8
05331 05331 Isa. 34:10
05957 05705 05957 Dan. 2:20
05705 05957 05957 Dan. 7:18
As noted initially, we would not in English write eternity and eternity or to everlasting and everlasting. These would seem redundant. We do, however, say for ever and ever and have probably picked this up from the Bible.
But in the Bible it appears that this is no redundancy. The individual words EVER do not, of themselves, necessarily indicate eternity. The habit of using them in reduplication is enough to demonstrate the truthfulness of this assertion. Rotherham and Young's Literal (two of the most literal translations available) translate these two formulas as follows:
Rotherham
05769-05769 one age even to/unto another age even unto age age to age
05769-05703 age-abiding and beyond; futurity, to/unto times age-abiding
perpetually - age abiding
Youngs Literal
05769-05769 from the age [and] unto the age from age even unto age
05769-05703 to the age, and for ever; age-during - and for ever; for a latter dayunto the age; for ever to the age
What Kind of Persons or Things or Events Last For Ever and Ever?
The subjects of these formulas - the persons or objects that were to last for ever and ever are differentiated below. The designation 'A' represents the first formula, 'B' the second. 'B2' represents the reversed order pairs. 'C' and 'D' represent Daniel 2 and 7 respectively.
Jehovah
Jehovah
Blotting Out
Gift of Life
Jehovahs Throne
Jehovahs Praise
Jehovahs Praise
Jehovahs Identity
My Trust in Jehovah
Commandments
Law Keeping
Heavens
Record of Rebellion
Gift of Canaan
Evangelists; Stars
Right-Living
Saints Reign
A I Ch. 16:36; 29:10; Neh. 9:5
B Ex. 5:18; Ps. 10:16
B Ps. 9:5
B Ps. 21:4
B Ps. 45:6
B Ps. 45:17; 145:1, 2, 21
C Dan. 2:20
B Ps. 48:14
B Ps. 52:8
B-2 Ps. 111:8
B Ps. 119:44
B-2 Ps. 148:6
B-2 Isa. 30:8
A Jer. 7:7; 25:5
B Dan. 12:3
B Mic. 4:5
D Dan. 7:18
In summary: The Old Testament formulations translated for ever and ever always refer to Jehovah, His qualities, His work, or the Saints. They are often stated in terms of contrast with the wicked and the works of men - both of which are transitory.
barney
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barney
Post #5
Shalom JehovahsWitness,
Thank you for you kind response.
Your concern for the actual definition and grammatical application of the greek plural word 'aionios' is duly noted and respectfully answered below.
If the greek word "aion" or its grammatical derivatives are used, their definition CANNOT be a FIXED meaning, that can be generalized consistently in each and every case where the word appears - it remains LIQUID waiting to poured into a mold, which is determined by the CONTEXT of the Scripture and the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED.
The definition of the noun/subject/object actually determines the definition of the greek "aion".
The prophecy in Matthew 25:46 illustrates two examples of the use of the greek word 'aionios'. At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus Christ will divide the Gentile tribulation survivors into two groups. Then He will say, "And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios)." It should be noted that in this particular Passage, the English words "everlasting" and "eternal" are each translated from the same Greek word "aionios".
Thus, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the punishment of the damned and lost. For example, Matthew 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ...."
Other examples are Matthew 18:8, Mark 3:29, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Hebrews 6:2, and Jude 1:7. Also, the word "aionios" is used over and over to describe the life of those who receive Salvation. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionios) life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Other examples are John 6:47, Acts 13:48, Romans 5:21, 1 Timothy 1:16, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11, and Jude 21. Therefore, those who insist that punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are Saved will one day end, as well.
Thus, the word "aionios" is used some 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is ETERNAL. Moreover, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), Salvation (Hebrews 5:9), Redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the Kingdom of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). To this end, those who insist that the punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must equally also argue that all of these will one day terminate as well.
Finally Romans 16:26 says, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith ...." The word "aionios" is used here as an adjective directly describing Yahweh God Himself. Thus, those who argue that the Punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must equally also argue that God Himself will one day cease to exist!
Hope this helps.
barney
Thank you for you kind response.
Your concern for the actual definition and grammatical application of the greek plural word 'aionios' is duly noted and respectfully answered below.
If the greek word "aion" or its grammatical derivatives are used, their definition CANNOT be a FIXED meaning, that can be generalized consistently in each and every case where the word appears - it remains LIQUID waiting to poured into a mold, which is determined by the CONTEXT of the Scripture and the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED.
The definition of the noun/subject/object actually determines the definition of the greek "aion".
The prophecy in Matthew 25:46 illustrates two examples of the use of the greek word 'aionios'. At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus Christ will divide the Gentile tribulation survivors into two groups. Then He will say, "And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios)." It should be noted that in this particular Passage, the English words "everlasting" and "eternal" are each translated from the same Greek word "aionios".
Thus, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the punishment of the damned and lost. For example, Matthew 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ...."
Other examples are Matthew 18:8, Mark 3:29, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Hebrews 6:2, and Jude 1:7. Also, the word "aionios" is used over and over to describe the life of those who receive Salvation. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionios) life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Other examples are John 6:47, Acts 13:48, Romans 5:21, 1 Timothy 1:16, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11, and Jude 21. Therefore, those who insist that punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are Saved will one day end, as well.
Thus, the word "aionios" is used some 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is ETERNAL. Moreover, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), Salvation (Hebrews 5:9), Redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the Kingdom of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). To this end, those who insist that the punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must equally also argue that all of these will one day terminate as well.
Finally Romans 16:26 says, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith ...." The word "aionios" is used here as an adjective directly describing Yahweh God Himself. Thus, those who argue that the Punishment in the Lake of Fire for the wicked will one day end, must equally also argue that God Himself will one day cease to exist!
Hope this helps.
barney
Post #6
Thank you for your kind response.
Hi barney, way to much to quote all of what you said so will only be addressing the most prevalent points.
First you never addressed the issue of something that is suppose to be eternal yet is something God prepared. Obviously if something is prepared it cannot be eternal in as without beginning and without end. You need to address this issue.The phrase 'Where The Worm Dieth Not' is a metaphore for ETERNAL - we must confess that ALL dead will be resurrected and subsequently judged (Rev. 20:12) and those natural bodies that have decayed will have to be reformed, in order to be cast into the dreaded Lake of Fire. Therefore, God will create a body for them where the Worm Dieth NOT.
Death was DEFEATED at the Cross (Rev. 1:18), otherwise there could be NO SALVATION...the man Adam brought death and the man Jesus brought Eternal LIFE.
Second, yes death was defeated at the cross, yet we do not see this outcome yet. Death is all around us. The lake of fire is death, so if it is eternal then death is eternal and cannot ever be defeated.
That to me is just playing with words, we can all then pick our own definition in order to make the scriptures fit our doctrine.Therefore, unless otherwise definably constrained and limited by context, if the PLURAL of AGES is used (aionas) then it is NOT possible to determine the length of the AGE and just how many of the AGES there actually are or have been - Ages of Ages (INFINITY and Eternal by default)?
Meanwhile, it then can be said that the definition of the greek word aion is therefore figuratively LIQUID, and assumes the definition/shape of whatever Contextual Biblical mold into which it is poured.
To this end, if it is ATTACHED to a noun/subject/object that is ETERNAL then its definition becomes ETERNAL. Likewise, if it is ATTACHED to a subject/object that is TEMPORAL then its definition becomes TEMPORAL.
Aion means age, it adjective aionious/aionion is that which relates to that age, nothing more nothing less.
Yes it can be FIXED with consistency in every case. Aion-age and aionious/aionion is that which pertains to that age.Moreover, the greek word aion or its grammatical derivatives are used, their definition CANNOT be a FIXED meaning, that can be generalized consistently in each and every case where the word appears - it remains LIQUID waiting to poured into a mold, which is determined by the CONTEXT of the Scripture and the 'subject/object' to which it is ATTACHED. The definition of the noun/subject/object actually determines the definition of aion.
Ya but those translator should have left it as age (and in the age to come age during life or the life of that age).Please consider this Scriptural example below and what some who do not think that the greek word 'aion' should be translated to mean ETERNAL, etc.
Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and, in the world (aion) to come, aionios-life."
"Take a look at how the translators swapped "world" for "aion" into in the above verse. However, they were left with an interesting dilemma. They translated aion as world, but they obviously could not stay consistent and translate "aionios" as "worldly." Worldly life? Yikes! So, they got inventive. They stayed with "world," but stretched aionios into "eternal." After all, they had a preconceived doctrine to adhere to."
Hebrews 7:16"Dr. Vincent had this to say about "eternal life" as it's spoken of in the Bible: - eternal life, which occurs 42 times in the N.T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by . . . (p. 60, vol. IV, Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament) As Dr. Vincent explains, these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached... As Dr. Vincent stated in the quote above, this does NOT preclude some who are raised to live in that kingdom from having "everlasting life" as we commonly understand it..."
Seeing that Dr. Vincent, et. al, do not accept the greek word anion as pertaining to perpetuity/eternity/endlessness, etc., but rather FINITE TIME, WHAT word does HE or yourself for that matter offer as a viable greek substitute for UNENDING TIME, because there are indeed Scriptures that REQUIRE the meaning of ETERNITY (see below). For example, what greek word addresses the PERPETUAL TIME immediately following the Millennial Reign of Christ?
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
If Vincent was referring to akatalutos he does not contradict himself.Meanwhile, Dr. Vincent emphatically declares... these words do not convey the concept of "eternity" or "endlessness" as we understand it... however, he then contradicts himself by stating... I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless... Although, Dr. Vincent OFFERS NO alternate applicable Biblical greek word that would satisfy his mandated ENDLESS Life in union with Christ, clearly revealed by Scripture.
Even though Dr. Vincent did not give an alternate word for endless life I did, it is akatalutos.
The problem I see that people have is that they think aionion life is the only life we have in Christ, but our life in Christ is MUCH MORE then aionion life.
Here is a small article I wrote on that life we have in Christ that is much more then eternal life.
MUCH MORE then aionios life
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.
Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.
Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say thats blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
Post #7
Hi JW, the problem with that is one must change the meaning of the English word eteranl from without beginning and without end to just without end.Greek word ai-on (plural, ai-ones) [...] [a]space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, and also lifetime, life, or age, generation. Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai-on could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning" Insight on the Scripture Vol I p. 57
That one has to play with the meaning of the word Eternal after that fashion should show eternal is not a proper translation of the word aion or aionion.
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barney
Post #8
Shalom penuma,
Thank you for your kind response.
You asked me to prove to you something ETERNAL that God has prepared.
To this end, before I show you what you have requested...allow me to first define how I am using the word 'aion/aionios' and its derivatives.
I am defining 'aionios' respective to "WHERE the WORM DIETH NOT", as something created by God that has a clearly defined BEGINNING but has NO DETERMINATE ENDING.
Seeing that you also make the declaration that, "... Yes [Aion] it can be FIXED with consistency in every case. Aion-age and aionious/aionion is that which pertains to that age...", this will address this specific concern as well.
In 1 Pet. 5:10, 1 Tim 1:17 and Heb. 9:14 we see the words aionion/aionious/aioniou used respectively to mean the ETERNAL Glory of God, the ETERNAL King God, and the ETERNAL Spirit of God. In each of these cited Passages we see time that has NO BEGINNING and NO DETERMINATE ENDING. Unless, you are suggesting that the Glory of God, the King God, and the Spirit of God each have time limits on them.
Likewise, as some examples of ETERNAL (aionious) defined as having a specified BEGINNING of time but NO ENDING, we see that in Heb. 5:9, Heb. 9:12, and 2 Pet. 1:11, that ETERNAL Salvation, ETERNAL Redemption, and the ETERNAL Kingdom of Jesus Christ each have a BEGINNING but NO ENDING.
Therefore, your insisted notion of Aion as being FIXED with consistency in every case - FAILS. Aion and its derivatives are just as I previously stated, they are LIQUID and definable in direct correlation to the OBJECT and CONTEXT to which they are attached.
Therefore, returning to your original concern of showing proof of something that God creates that is ETERNAL, as per the above described definition of ETERNAL - time with a specified BEGINNING but NO ENDING...What is an ANGEL, what is a GLORIFIED BODY at the Resurrection, what is the KINGDOM of Jesus, what is the WORM THAT DIETH NOT, etc..., each have a clearly definable BEGINNING but NO ENDING.
Moreover, you declare that the, "Lake of Fire is DEATH", this is a misquote of Scripture.
The Lake of Fire is the PLACE of ETERNAL Punishment/Torment for those who are NOT part of the First Resurrection and do NOT have their names in the Lamb's BOOK of Life. (Rev. 20:6, 14-15).
Being cast into the Lake of Fire is a consequence of NOT being in the First Resurrection or having their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, this is the Second Death.
Once again, your preponderance FAILS.
Hope this helps.
barney
Thank you for your kind response.
You asked me to prove to you something ETERNAL that God has prepared.
To this end, before I show you what you have requested...allow me to first define how I am using the word 'aion/aionios' and its derivatives.
I am defining 'aionios' respective to "WHERE the WORM DIETH NOT", as something created by God that has a clearly defined BEGINNING but has NO DETERMINATE ENDING.
Seeing that you also make the declaration that, "... Yes [Aion] it can be FIXED with consistency in every case. Aion-age and aionious/aionion is that which pertains to that age...", this will address this specific concern as well.
In 1 Pet. 5:10, 1 Tim 1:17 and Heb. 9:14 we see the words aionion/aionious/aioniou used respectively to mean the ETERNAL Glory of God, the ETERNAL King God, and the ETERNAL Spirit of God. In each of these cited Passages we see time that has NO BEGINNING and NO DETERMINATE ENDING. Unless, you are suggesting that the Glory of God, the King God, and the Spirit of God each have time limits on them.
Likewise, as some examples of ETERNAL (aionious) defined as having a specified BEGINNING of time but NO ENDING, we see that in Heb. 5:9, Heb. 9:12, and 2 Pet. 1:11, that ETERNAL Salvation, ETERNAL Redemption, and the ETERNAL Kingdom of Jesus Christ each have a BEGINNING but NO ENDING.
Therefore, your insisted notion of Aion as being FIXED with consistency in every case - FAILS. Aion and its derivatives are just as I previously stated, they are LIQUID and definable in direct correlation to the OBJECT and CONTEXT to which they are attached.
Therefore, returning to your original concern of showing proof of something that God creates that is ETERNAL, as per the above described definition of ETERNAL - time with a specified BEGINNING but NO ENDING...What is an ANGEL, what is a GLORIFIED BODY at the Resurrection, what is the KINGDOM of Jesus, what is the WORM THAT DIETH NOT, etc..., each have a clearly definable BEGINNING but NO ENDING.
Moreover, you declare that the, "Lake of Fire is DEATH", this is a misquote of Scripture.
The Lake of Fire is the PLACE of ETERNAL Punishment/Torment for those who are NOT part of the First Resurrection and do NOT have their names in the Lamb's BOOK of Life. (Rev. 20:6, 14-15).
Being cast into the Lake of Fire is a consequence of NOT being in the First Resurrection or having their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, this is the Second Death.
Once again, your preponderance FAILS.
Hope this helps.
barney
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #9
Or...not use the word ETERNAL at all when speaking of things that had a beginning.pneuma wrote:Hi JW, the problem with that is one must change the meaning of the English word eteranl from without beginning and without end to just without end.Greek word ai-on (plural, ai-ones) [...] [a]space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, and also lifetime, life, or age, generation. Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai-on could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning" Insight on the Scripture Vol I p. 57
That one has to play with the meaning of the word Eternal after that fashion should show eternal is not a proper translation of the word aion or aionion.
A GOOD translator will seek to accurately reflect the meaning of the original word in context and aion is a "multi-layered" word; thus the New World Translation (of Jehovah's Witnesses) does NOT use the English word "eternal" for aion in Math 25: 41 but EVERLASTING since, as you pointed out the context clearly indicates Jesus is refering to something with a defintate beginning; thus the English word eternal would here be unsuitable.
They weren't kidding when they said "the Greeks had a word for it" and aion suitably illustrates that we may need several different English words (according to context) to adequately cover the scope of one Greek word.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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barney
Post #10
Shalom JW,
Thank you for your kind response.
What you suggest is that the, "New World Translation (of Jehovah's Witnesses) does NOT use the English word "eternal" for aion but EVERLASTING; "problem" solved."
While you being a Jehovah's Witness, that might be all good and well for you, but I think the Baptist, Pentecostals, Lutherians, etc., might have a completely different opinion and take issue, should we do this.
You seem to suggest that the NEWER the TRANSLATION the greater the accuracy of Texts. I beg to differ...
While God's original WORD is without ERROR (inerrant) - man's translations are NOT...they are just that MAN's TRANSLATION - and on many occasions man will silently input his own interpretative Opinions, that may or may NOT agree with what Yahweh and Yeshau actually intended in the first place.
I am of the OPINION that the closer we can get to the older original language/texts the more likely the increase in accuracy of interpretation.
Nonetheless, if NEWER is BETTER modern Engineers designed and built the Titanic, however, God and Noah designed and built the Ark.
You decide...
Hope this helps.
barney
Thank you for your kind response.
What you suggest is that the, "New World Translation (of Jehovah's Witnesses) does NOT use the English word "eternal" for aion but EVERLASTING; "problem" solved."
While you being a Jehovah's Witness, that might be all good and well for you, but I think the Baptist, Pentecostals, Lutherians, etc., might have a completely different opinion and take issue, should we do this.
You seem to suggest that the NEWER the TRANSLATION the greater the accuracy of Texts. I beg to differ...
While God's original WORD is without ERROR (inerrant) - man's translations are NOT...they are just that MAN's TRANSLATION - and on many occasions man will silently input his own interpretative Opinions, that may or may NOT agree with what Yahweh and Yeshau actually intended in the first place.
I am of the OPINION that the closer we can get to the older original language/texts the more likely the increase in accuracy of interpretation.
Nonetheless, if NEWER is BETTER modern Engineers designed and built the Titanic, however, God and Noah designed and built the Ark.
You decide...
Hope this helps.
barney
