What would convince you that God doesn't exist?

[abnoxio]

I'm interested what it would take for a Christian, Catholic, etc. to be convinced that God did not exist.
In other words what kind of proof would convince you. The discovery of Jesus's body? Alien invaders? that kind of thing.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[KanIwalkAstraightLine]

This is a hard question to answer, but off the top of my head I would have to say...I would have to die to realize that God does not exist. Kind of like going to the North Pole and seeing .....nothing, but then I would still have questions??

[McCulloch]

I guess what abnoxio is looking for is whether the various theists positions are falsifiable. Because if the position is not falsifiable then it is also not debatable. And if you have to die before you know, then that is for any practical purposes not falsifiable.

For example, if a theist says that their god created the universe in a specific number of days less than 10 thousand years ago, that would normally be falsifiable if you could show that something is at least millions of years old. But if their god is also magic and can make things appear as if they were old on those few days less than 10 thousand years ago. Then their statement is not falsifiable. There would be absolutely nothing that could, even in theory, disprove their position.

By the way, this is a real example, but not representative of all young earth creationists.

[Cephus]

Nothing is going to convince a theist that God doesn't exist, their beliefs are not based on reality but on wishful thinking. Look at all the people who desperately cling to the most ludicrous, disproven religious ideas? The flood? Shroud of Turin? All the "Mary on Toast" nonsense. They don't care if it's real or not, it gives them something to believe in, so they believe no matter how silly it is.

[abnoxio]

Wow, I really wasn't expecting that but really enlightening. So you're saying that debating a theist is somewhat akin to debating whether or not Santa Claus exists with a five year old.

Oddly enough, I was involved with the international Churches of Christ for 13 years, 4 of those as the local church leader/evangelist. And during the last 3 or 4 years I became dissillusioned to the point that I knew that the only way I would leave the church was if I became convinced that God did not exist. Being that we were a VERY active and disciplined group, who were trying to follow what the first century church did, we were very legalistic, and had a very, very clear idea of what we believed was the way to heaven (being a disciple Matt 28:18------ go make disciples of all nations thing).

So in short, please excuse my ramblings, I saw that in reality God or any supernatural powers were responsible for absolutely nothing.

I think once I woke up to that fact, that God has NO power, NO influence, NO counsel, No miracles, No healings, No mercy No...... you get the basic idea.

Man this is sounding like a mess.

But here it is, I think that without my even knowing it, all the convincing that I needed was right in front of my face, and once I woke up to it, the fact that God does NOTHING. I became an atheist.

It felt wonderful!

Thanks again for indulging me!
Ted

[otseng]

In other words what kind of proof would convince you. The discovery of Jesus's body? Alien invaders? that kind of thing.

Actually, whether you intended to or not, you hit the nails on the head with those.

Pretty much if someone exhumed the body of Jesus Christ, there would go Christianity. If Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, then Christianity is a fraud.

1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

As for an alien invader (or any sign of any extraterrestrial being), I wouldn't say it would be the downfall of Christianity, but to me it would be the downfall of creationism.

So, yes, these points would falsify Christianity and creationism.

[Cephus]

Pretty much if someone exhumed the body of Jesus Christ, there would go Christianity. If Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, then Christianity is a fraud.

Oh, Christians would find a way around it. They'd claim it was the work of Satan. Or a test by God. Anything to keep the faith.

[Cephus]

Wow, I really wasn't expecting that but really enlightening. So you're saying that debating a theist is somewhat akin to debating whether or not Santa Claus exists with a five year old.

That pretty much sums it up. Kids believe in Santa Claus, not because they've examined the evidence and found it a reasonable belief, but because they get something out of it. They get presents. You can argue all you want, present any amount of evidence, etc. and the kid will never admit that Santa Claus doesn't exist because the kid has a vested interest in the belief. It's only much later when they realize that there are other explanations for the appearance of the presents that they reject the faith in Santa.

Theists are exactly the same. They have a vested interest in the existence of God. They want someone to watch over them. They don't want to fear death. They want a 'purpose' to their lives. Therefore, they accept the existence of this fantasy deity that seems to explain all their fears and desires and nothing, no amount of evidence, is going to pursuade them otherwise. Many of them get to the point where their entire worldview revolves solely around this belief structure, they simply cannot conceive of a universe where God isn't real.

It's a little like arguing with a brick wall, except the bricks are more open to reality.

[trencacloscas]

Probably nothing. We all know the myth of St. Peter. The "tu es petrus" passage is a fake, there is no proof he could ever visit Rome, yet Catholics claim to have the tomb and the body, once examined it proved another fake. Two of the bones are from a woman, for starters. And then kings, presidents and leaders of the world pay tribute when in the Vatican to that bunch of cheating bones. Faith and hypocrisy together, gullibility and power, the same over history. No proof will ever convince those who are so needed or desperate to believe.

[otseng]

Oh, Christians would find a way around it. They'd claim it was the work of Satan. Or a test by God. Anything to keep the faith.

I was primarily addressing McCulloch's charge of the falsifiability of Christianity. Exhuming the body of Jesus would falsify it. As to whether or not people would accept it being falsified would be another matter.