Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:27 am

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

dusk · Post by **dusk** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:54 pm

evangelist wrote: Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
.....

I am starting to wonder. Are you actually as "witty" as your post make you out to be or are you really just an Atheist set out to mock people here.

Morphine · Post by **Morphine** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:39 pm

evangelist wrote:
Morphine wrote: Why worship such a god that punishes those who are "unable" to see things a particular way.
Sure. There are some people who believe in God, yet reject him for whatever reason.
But there are also people who don't believe in God because they are unable to.
Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful,
but became futile in their thoughts,
and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,
to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;
full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,
not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Those verses are obviously bias and are meant to discredit anyone who think differently by slander and false accusation. Based off of these verses, I'm also full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-minded ness, "inventors" of evil (really?), undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, "unmerciful" (seriously?). I left out the other things because they are common amongst just about everyone. Including me at times. But everything I listed is just plan insulting and has no bases to make such claims. It's things like that which make me say the bible is bull.

Of course someone seeking to gain followers, would attempt to discredit anyone who goes against him. It makes perfect sense.

Morphine · Post by **Morphine** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:48 pm

evangelist wrote:
Morphine wrote: Why worship such a god that punishes those who are "unable" to see things a particular way.
Sure. There are some people who believe in God, yet reject him for whatever reason.
But there are also people who don't believe in God because they are unable to.
Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

I make no excuses. If I don't believe, that's it.
Whether its because I can't see or the devil impairs my belief or the stories just simply weren't convincing enough... It's all out of my control. And all resort in disbelief.

So the fact still remains. I am currently unable to believe. Your religious text says I'm basically evil because I don't believe in super powered spirits. And that I deserve to die because of it. And it doesn't end there. Oh no. I get tortured for eternity (merciful?).

Btw. Hell is a scare tactic used to punk people into the religion. Heaven is a reward system. Just like telling kids that if they be good all year, Santa will bring them presents.

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:51 pm

evangelist wrote:Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

I think that's a whole other debate entirely. Mankind has more than enough reasons to doubt the claims of the existence of "god" or "gods" when there isn't much (if any) evidence to support their existence. Telling people they have no excuse for not believing in "god" is like telling a person they have no excuse for not believing in the Loch Ness Monster at this point.

Also, if "god" does exist why should it be expected of us to worship him? Simply acknowledging "god" isn't enough? Whether we worship or not would be rather arbitrary to an omnipotent being, don't you think?

1robin · Post by **1robin** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:54 pm

OpiatefortheMasses wrote:
evangelist wrote:Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

I think that's a whole other debate entirely. Mankind has more than enough reasons to doubt the claims of the existence of "god" or "gods" when there isn't much (if any) evidence to support their existence. Telling people they have no excuse for not believing in "god" is like telling a person they have no excuse for not believing in the Loch Ness Monster at this point.

Also, if "god" does exist why should it be expected of us to worship him? Simply acknowledging "god" isn't enough? Whether we worship or not would be rather arbitrary to an omnipotent being, don't you think?

I will agree that the fact of God is certainly a slam dunk from a non-believers perspective. From a believers perspective I am ashamed that it took me so long to come to the realesation that he is real but I understand the point.

We are not required to worship God as a condition of salvation. It is a work or duty to God because of the salvation we recieved but not conditional for that salvation. If you are not saved I can understand your reluctance to worship him as you have not recieved anything that you attribute to him. I understand the struggle but it won't excuse anything in the end (if we were right).
Selah

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:58 pm

[quote="evangelist"]

You know this scripture is true and I know it is true but since there is no historical experience of the Universal Witness anywhere in the world, people just can't see it:

Godâ€™s Wrath Against Mankind
Rom 1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world Godâ€™s invisible qualitiesâ€”his eternal power and divine natureâ€”have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Who are these men?
My first question is, does the group of persons of whom Paul is writing include every person who will be judged or just some?

A natural progression from verse
1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of GOD unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. to verse 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

would imply verse 18 applies to ALL men not saved, to everyone who will see wrath. We can also say that the attributes of these ungodly in these and other verses apply to every person who will see wrath.

Romans 2:6-8 - (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

It is also clear that to be contentious to the truth and not obey it, one must first have heard it.

When / How did the non-Christian hear the truth?
1:20 For since the creation of the world Godâ€™s invisible qualitiesâ€”his eternal power and divine natureâ€”have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This is the one verse in the whole Bible that teaches us (supposedly) that the non-Christians of the whole world of all time will see the wrath because they know of GOD's eternal power and divine nature from the witness of HIS creation.

But in fact, not all the people of the other religions do profess to have learned this knowledge of GOD. How can that be?
1. They never got it.
2. They lie about not getting it, and no later convert to Christianity from any other culture or religion has ever exposed this lie.

It may be a Universal Witness but why has it never been suggested as such a witness except by Christians and never by any untaught heathen? If these verses were not here and taught to you this way, would YOU have seen this universal witness about the invisible things of GOD?

Where are all the people of the world who looked at the billboard of this amazing witness and who realized the great invisible truths of YHWH which they reject? Where are their dire warning about this witness to a crazy GOD who makes impossible claims?

Remember, these folk are deemed to have rejected the truth of His power, ie His judgment. Why did none bow in worship? Where are their stories and their gospel?

Also, if the witness is so clearly seen, how can the vanity of so many Hindus and Buddhists, after spending years meditating on creation, come up with their witness that they are (could become) god: hardly a witness to YHWH and HIS judgement.

And if this witness is so powerful why do we need evangelists to preach the gospel? Why does not every person come to God or reject Him on their own? Why do we need missionaries or even Sunday school teachers?

How does this doctrine that says men are not blind and can see GOD without grace work in light of the doctrine that says all men are spiritually blind and can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the gospel?

If you do no know the answers to these questions, how an you say that you understand how GOD is willing to put His wrath upon the billions of HIS beloved children that have never heard of Christ? If someone rejects your witness of these verses, how can we be sure they are truly rejecting GOD's truth and not some poor teacher's inadequate version of it?

Pre-Concepion Existence Theology has an answer of course: we all SAW it when GOD proved HIS Power, Glory and Divinity after we finished our true free will decisions, when He created the physical universe right before us. And every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praises.

This of course effectively put an end to the hope the rebellious entertained that GOD was a false god and less than themselves because they at least did not lie about themselves so egotistically. It also sealed their fate to be damned.

That we saw HIS power an glory but have forgotten it is a much better, more reasonable belief than the whole population of all time of the world has understood JEHOVAH'S invisible attributes by looking at the stars et al which is not attested to once in all of history because of a conspiracy or a...what was that again....?

Peace, Ted

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:13 am

1robin wrote:I will agree that the fact of God is certainly a slam dunk from a non-believers perspective. From a believers perspective I am ashamed that it took me so long to come to the realesation that he is real but I understand the point.

We are not required to worship God as a condition of salvation. It is a work or duty to God because of the salvation we recieved but not conditional for that salvation. If you are not saved I can understand your reluctance to worship him as you have not recieved anything that you attribute to him. I understand the struggle but it won't excuse anything in the end (if we were right).
Selah

I wouldn't say it's a "slam dunk" or anything like that. I would simply say that the existence of "god" or "gods" is unfalsifiable at this point meaning it can't be proven or disproved. Because of that I simply quantify "god" and "gods" as an unknown which is fair. Personally, I don't believe but that doesn't mean that "god" or "gods" couldn't exist. They very well could but I think our interpretations of them are far too flawed. They tend to reflect us too much rather than the perfect beings that some would like to make them out to be.

It's arguable that "salvation" itself in terms of Christianity is tantamount to worship since you're still subjugating yourself before "god". The main problem I have with "salvation" is the fact that the only thing you're saving yourself from (when you examine the scenario) is the very "god" you worship. That just doesn't seem right to me. Who knows who's right or wrong in this race. Hell, we could all be wrong. I'd rather just cross that bridge when I come to it rather than going all in just yet.

1robin · Post by **1robin** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:39 am

OpiatefortheMasses wrote:
1robin wrote:I will agree that the fact of God is certainly a slam dunk from a non-believers perspective. From a believers perspective I am ashamed that it took me so long to come to the realesation that he is real but I understand the point.

We are not required to worship God as a condition of salvation. It is a work or duty to God because of the salvation we recieved but not conditional for that salvation. If you are not saved I can understand your reluctance to worship him as you have not recieved anything that you attribute to him. I understand the struggle but it won't excuse anything in the end (if we were right).
Selah
I wouldn't say it's a "slam dunk" or anything like that. I would simply say that the existence of "god" or "gods" is unfalsifiable at this point meaning it can't be proven or disproved. Because of that I simply quantify "god" and "gods" as an unknown which is fair. Personally, I don't believe but that doesn't mean that "god" or "gods" couldn't exist. They very well could but I think our interpretations of them are far too flawed. They tend to reflect us too much rather than the perfect beings that some would like to make them out to be.

It's arguable that "salvation" itself in terms of Christianity is tantamount to worship since you're still subjugating yourself before "god". The main problem I have with "salvation" is the fact that the only thing you're saving yourself from (when you examine the scenario) is the very "god" you worship. That just doesn't seem right to me. Who knows who's right or wrong in this race. Hell, we could all be wrong. I'd rather just cross that bridge when I come to it rather than going all in just yet.

In my original quote I meant to say "not a slam dunk". I understand that it isn't easy to have faith in something that you can't see directly. There are many things humans have to deal with that we don't like, death for instance. The fact that you don't like being accountable to God has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. I find alot of non-believers say god is not real because they don't like the implications his being real means but this is not a valid argument. I sympathise with the reluctance of people to be submissive to a God as I held that view for a long time but I realized I was wrong. Your view of salvation is somewhat incorrect. I have never felt more free than since I was saved. Jesus said he came to set captives free from the law of sin and death (that is quite a different view than your description). You will never find an absolute proof for the reality of Christianity as a non-Christian, but speaking as a Christian my salvation experience was the proof I was seeking. Like the apostles said "If Jesus be not raised fromthe dead then our faith is in vain and we are more to be pitied than all men". I would say that "were not my salvation experience exactly what the bible predicts it would be then Christianity is merely a philosophy and of no more value and certainty than any other belief system. God is kinda hard nosed on the sugbject he says:

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

Peoples view on creation vs naturalism I have found many times depends on their preconcieved world view not the actual evidence. I find unimaginable complexity in nature (the human brain is the complex arrangement of matter in the known universe or the precise finetuning of the universe for any life at all to exist) evidence of God. A lot rides on what you see which is why naturalism is such a contentious subject.

Morphine · Post by **Morphine** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:19 pm

1robin wrote:
In my original quote I meant to say "not a slam dunk". I understand that it isn't easy to have faith in something that you can't see directly. There are many things humans have to deal with that we don't like, death for instance. The fact that you don't like being accountable to God has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. I find alot of non-believers say god is not real because they don't like the implications his being real means but this is not a valid argument. I sympathise with the reluctance of people to be submissive to a God as I held that view for a long time but I realized I was wrong. Your view of salvation is somewhat incorrect. I have never felt more free than since I was saved. Jesus said he came to set captives free from the law of sin and death (that is quite a different view than your description). You will never find an absolute proof for the reality of Christianity as a non-Christian, but speaking as a Christian my salvation experience was the proof I was seeking. Like the apostles said "If Jesus be not raised fromthe dead then our faith is in vain and we are more to be pitied than all men". I would say that "were not my salvation experience exactly what the bible predicts it would be then Christianity is merely a philosophy and of no more value and certainty than any other belief system. God is kinda hard nosed on the sugbject he says:

New Living Translation (Â©2007)
"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

Peoples view on creation vs naturalism I have found many times depends on their preconcieved world view not the actual evidence. I find unimaginable complexity in nature (the human brain is the complex arrangement of matter in the known universe or the precise finetuning of the universe for any life at all to exist) evidence of God. A lot rides on what you see which is why naturalism is such a contentious subject.

Well all non-believers that I have encountered say that they don't believe in God because it's just not believable in their minds. And the fact that there is no indisputable evidence, definitely doesn't help. So it's true. I don't like the whole servitude, hell, intolerant, thing that religions tend to have, but that doesn't affect my belief or lack of belief in gods. I don't like the fact that people get cancer and that if I don't eat healthy foods, I may die earlier in my life by natural causes. But I don't disbelieve it.

As far as salvation, you have to abide by God's rules in order to receive it. Which can be viewed as servitude. And strangely enough, the salvation is being offered by the person who controls the outcome. And the only other option he gives us other than serving him is infinite torture. He could have simply left us with nonexistence. That would have been very merciful.

Also, the argument regarding creationism vs naturalism; you find that most people's views derive from their preconceived outlook on the world and NOT the evidence. But you will find that most atheists were believers in some kind of god and changed because of the lack of evidence that religion has. And they adopt new views because of the evidence those views do have.

To me personally, the belief in a god requires you to stop looking for evidence and start making your decisions (as far as religious views) based on your emotions and preference. Everyone I know that are believers, are believers because they reframe from asking too many questions, just accept whatever answers they get regardless of how weak they are, and/or just find comfort in their beliefs.

evangelist · Post by **evangelist** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:35 pm

Sorry, I don't know if this has been posted yet ...

We all have a great excuse for not understanding the things of God â€¦

â€œFor My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My waysâ€�,
says the Lord.
â€œFor as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.â€� (Isaiah 55:8-9)

This is why we cannot understand spiritual things using our intellect, education, logic, reasoning, and etc.

Spiritual understanding (of Godâ€™s Truth) only comes through spiritual revelation by Godâ€™s Spirit.

Please notice Godâ€™s warning to everyone â€¦
â€œThere is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.â€� (Proverbs 14:12, 16:25)

Good Luck to everyone in receiving Godâ€™s Truth (through His Spirit only).