Is humanity (as a whole) capable of moral progress?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Have we all ready made an improvement in ethics?



Now 'morals' (if you even believe in such a thing) are of course only determined from ones personal perspective. So lets just pretend that things such as murder, discrimination, and oppression (which most of us here I'm sure would frown upon) are universally accepted as being morally wrong.

Based on that, can society improve? Has it all ready? Have we gotten worse?

[Dilettante]

The idea of moral progress is probably derived from eschatological theology. Certain thinkers have been tempted to see human history as following an inevitable, predetermined course (Hegel, Marx, etc.) As such, human moral progress is (IMO) a myth. It's a very useful myth, perhaps, but a myth nonetheless. It's attractive because it is usually linked to scientific and technological progress (both undeniable) and it is tempting to believe that all human facets progress. This is not the case: there is no progress in art or music, for example, and we can't say that Warhol is better than Rembrandt, or that Stockhausen is better than Bach.
In the case of morality/ethics, the situation is similar. Improvements may have been made in certain issues and in certain parts of the world. But, as a whole, human nature remains pretty much the same. We may wage wars less often than our ancestors, but our wars are more lethal. The twentieth century witnessed some of the worst horrors we can imagine: carpet bombing, the Holocaust, the Gulag, Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and Cultural Revolution, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the Rwandan genocide... Even in the US, the Japanese Internement and the bombing of Hiroshima count against the theory of human moral progress.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

What if the mere belief that humankind cannot progress is all that holds us back? What if everyone on earth was instilled with the idea that people and their affairs can take a turn for the good? Would it be possible then?

Human nature is typically viewed as flat and unchanging. Looking at the millions of other animal species and their fixed instincts seems to solidify this perception. What we are forgetting however, is that we are NOT like other animals. We have the capacity to grow and learn. We don't rely just on primal instincts, but with reason as well. These very attributes have allowed us to progress in the areas of science and physics. I would argue that we can advance in other areas as well, and that all it would really take is a change of attitude. Humankind has proved itself quite capable of that... on an individual AND group level. On this note, I would like to point out that mere individuals can change the attitudes of millions. Perhaps someday we will have more people such as this to lead us forward. Change, after all, usually always stems on an idiosyncratic level.

Thanks for the reply, BTW.

[bernee51]

What if the mere belief that humankind cannot progress is all that holds us back? What if everyone on earth was instilled with the idea that people and their affairs can take a turn for the good? Would it be possible then?

An interesting approach...what if humankind started to believe that we are 'potentially perfect' rather than fatally flawed as christians would have us believe.

Human nature is typically viewed as flat and unchanging. Looking at the millions of other animal species and their fixed instincts seems to solidify this perception. What we are forgetting however, is that we are NOT like other animals.

Correct - A misperception and a misconception. Evolution continues - at all levels. Look at the 'spiritual' history of our species and how it has evolved (is evolving). Look at the development of consciousness in individuals. Then there is the cultural/societal evolution of our species.

Where we run into trouble is when the 'toys' of the scientific age fall into the hands of societies stuck in a mythic belief system (or worse, a 'power god' belleif system where the means are always jutified by the supposed ends)

[Dilettante]

We are not like other animals, that's for sure. But human nature is not as malleable as some would have us believe. Evolution does not imply progress or advancement toward some higher goal.

The belief that humankind cannot progress does not seem to be the prevailing one. It's unlikely to be what's holding us back. And, while you're right that our beliefs do influence our behavior, they can only do so if things can really change. If human nature is not morally perfectible, our belief that it is won't change that fact. Most people believe they are more intelligent or more attractive than average. That might give them self-confidence, but it can't make 80% of the population smarter or more attractive than the average person. It's just not possible.

Thank you for your views on the issue!

[The Persnickety Platypus]

The belief that humankind cannot progress does not seem to be the prevailing one. It's unlikely to be what's holding us back.

That's true. Which brings me to think, is it in fact our unwillingness to act that holds us back? Laziness. Most people are perfectly willing to speak their mind on issues, but when it comes to actually going out and doing something about it, well, you get the picture. Most humans naturally only help others when they see some benefit in it for themselves. If we can make people realize however, that helping others in fact WILL make our world (and consequently, their lives) better, then we may have a chance.

If human nature is not morally perfectible, our belief that it is won't change that fact.

BUT, what if human nature IS morally perfectible (considering you couldn't possibly accurately prove it isn't), and we go about thinking that it's not? Nothing will ever happen! People don't strive towards goals they know they can't reach. But we don't know that we can't reach this one. Therefore, isn't it worth a shot? What do we have to lose? If we are wrong, then we are wrong. But if we are right, just think of the wonderful effects of our efforts.


World peace may not be so far off afterall.

[Dilettante]

Most humans naturally only help others when they see some benefit in it for themselves.

I'm not sure that's true. Altruism exists. In some cultures, people seem to see helping others as more of a natural thing to do.

If we can make people realize however, that helping others in fact WILL make our world (and consequently, their lives) better, then we may have a chance.

I'm all for helping others when that can make a difference. If we can reasonably expect our help to be effective, I would say we have an ethical duty to help. If, however, our help is futile... then we may be just wasting time and energy.

BUT, what if human nature IS morally perfectible

The historical evidence doesn't seem to bear out that claim, though.

World peace may not be so far off after all.

Have you read Kant's "Perpetual Peace"? It's a very short book. You sound like a Kantian idealist. I appreciate your good will, but I sincerely don't see how the different national and cultural interests could ever be in perfect harmony. Unless, of course, we managed to eliminate human culture altogether.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I'm not sure that's true. Altruism exists. In some cultures, people seem to see helping others as more of a natural thing to do.

But of course, in some cases. I did say most, not all. But it is my observation that the majority of humanity acts mostly in self interest. People praise the US for being unselfish, but even this is far from true. Historically, we only "help" when we ourselves feel threatened, or there is something to be gained. Other countries seem to act in a similar fashion.

I would argue that this can change however. It has all ready changed in many cultures.

If, however, our help is futile... then we may be just wasting time and energy.

But my entire point was that we can't PROVE that the effort would be futile. There is no evidence that completely wipes the theory from the realm of possibility. I believe we are obligated, therefore, to give it a shot. What goal could possibly be more worthwhile of our time and effort?

What difference does the historical evidence make? We make our own history.

but I sincerely don't see how the different national and cultural interests could ever be in perfect harmony. Unless, of course, we managed to eliminate human culture altogether.

We must learn to not allow our differences to divide us, but work together and learn to make contrasting interests coincide. It really isn't very complicated. But we will need cooperation from all parties, and an abolishment all selfish interests. Cultures will never be eliminated, but they CAN concede to a common interest, and learn to tolerate the lifestyle of others.


Complete peace may never come, but we can certainly progress. And then someday, who knows? Just because utopia has never existed before does not make it impossible. I suggest that we all keep an open mind.

[Bugmaster]

Have we all ready made an improvement in ethics?

That depends -- what do you mean by "an improvement" ?

Just to give you an example, most Islamic regimes agree that converting all infidels to Islam, and destroying the rest, would be an improvement. In this sense, no, we haven't made much improvement -- good thing, too.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Ethics are subject to ones own perspective, of course. So have we made an improvement by your personal standards?


Also, I think that it is inaccurate to say MOST Islams favor violence. There are only a small percentage that resort to terrorism and the like.