The witch of Endor

[Burninglight]

When the prophet Samuel told King Saul he lost his Kingdom because of his rebellion against God. He started taking matters into his own hands. After prophet Samuel's death he was troubled. He still wanted the prophet's blessing. So he went to the witch of Endor. The witch was afraid, because they put witches to death back then, but King Saul promised her protection. He wanted her to conjure up the prophet Samuel, and when she did, she totally freaked out when he showed up.
I couldn't understand why she freaked out nor could I understand why she was able to move the hand of God to allow the prophet of God to show up at her beckoning. I have an idea what happen, but I like to hear someone elses opinion as to what they think happened.

[Divine Insight]

I first became interested in Lilith several years ago when I took an evening class in Literature and was assigned to write a poem.

I once knew a woman named Lilith
but her husband she couldn't fullfilleth
she called upon God to spare her the rod
and ran off with a demon named Willith

Her husband complained like a kid
so God took from his body a rib
and with it conceived a woman named Eve
short-lived was the feminist's-lib

[JohnPaul]

I first became interested in Lilith several years ago when I took an evening class in Literature and was assigned to write a poem.

I once knew a woman named Lilith
but her husband she couldn't fullfilleth
she called upon God to spare her the rod
and ran off with a demon named Willith

Her husband complained like a kid
so God took from his body a rib
and with it conceived a woman named Eve
short-lived was the feminist's-lib

Very good!!! I could never do anything with limericks. Mine was much simpler verse. I was outraged by God's broken promise of equality to Lilith and sent Lucifer to rescue her:

The woman Lilith, made to please,
Was first in line to share,
But dared to quarrel with the man
And left him lying there.

Pursued by angels sent by God,
Commanded to conform,
She chose instead to turn away
And fled into the storm.

Dismayed to see the royal law
Reduced to spiteful whim,
The hosts of heaven, led by seven,
Rebuked the Elohim.

Against his wrath they could not stand
And soon were bending low.
All save one, archangel still,
Who stood and would not bow.

His thrones and powers abandoned now,
The proud archangel fell,
To fly with Lilith through the storm
And reign at last in hell.

[Burninglight]

I am not worried about my salvation, but I am, WADR, about yours.

You don't trust Jesus and the God of Abraham to do what's right?

Why should you worry about the salvation of someone else? If they are cast into a hell fire and God is just, then why should you worry about that? After all, if it was a just action then it was totally justified and the person being cast into the hell fire obviously must be deserving of their fate.

The only reason you could possibly "worry" about my salvation is if you believe that I could somehow be "wrongfully" cast into hell. But that would suggest that you don't trust God to be just .

The very idea that you would worry about God casting anyone into a hell fire who isn't absolutely deserving of that fate is a testament that you don't trust God to be just.

It is written that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of truth"

Well if God is so concerned about people knowing truth, then don't you think it should be up to him to be sure that they have it?

Are you suggesting that God would cast people into hell simply because they had been lied to by a supposed demonic fallen angle?

And you consider that to be "justice"?

I am sad that you have such a morbid view of God, and I don't help getting you to see it any differently. I am sad, because I feel like I only cause you to dig in your heels, because I lack debating skills to match that of yours. I just see myself as unpofitable to God.

Why should God's failures be such a burden on you?

If God is responsible for have inspired the writing of a book that has totally convinced me that it can be nothing more than the superstitious ramblings of male-chauvinistic mortals, then why should you feel that it's entirely on your shoulders to correct God's failure to convince me via his own inspired writings?

You have no clue how many times I have read and re-read the Bible trying extremely hard to give it every possible excuse in the world. Bending over backwards trying to twist it into something that could even be remotely sane, and every time walking away from it convinced that such a task is utterly impossible.

I couldn't believe that the Bible is the word of an all-wise supreme being if my life depended upon it.

At the very best, all I could do is pretend to believe in it with extremely lame effort to avoid eternal damnation in case it somehow "might be true".

But even that would be a blatant pretense. I would know that it would be false belief. God would know that it's false belief. In short if my fate depends on a belief in the Hebrew scriptures then God has sealed my fate because I could never honestly and sincerely believe that such utter nonsense and absurdities came from any all-wise supreme being.

All you could possible do is ask me to be pretentious lie to myself and to God by proclaiming that I believe something that I clearly cannot believe in.

What kind of a God would require that a person lie about what they sincerely and honestly believe in order to get into his heaven.

Supposedly it wouldn't work anyway.

I believe you are a very nice person and that you are sincere and no hypocrite, but I believe you are sincerely wrong. I cannot deny my experiences with Jesus. He is the bread of life to me.

Well, I sincerely belief that the Hebrew fables are false. Jesus (if he existed at all) was merely a mortal man who evidently rejected the teachings of the Old Testament and the God of Abraham, rebelled against the religious clergy of the day by publicly ranting about them being hypocrites, and was finally crucified by those same offended Pharisees. (assuming there is any truth to the stories at all)

I don't believe for one second that he was born of a virgin, or that he raised people from the dead, or that he himself raised from the dead.

I sincerely and honestly cannot believe any of that. Would you have me lie and pretend that I could?

And on top of all that utter nonsense, I'd also have to believe that it was actually God's PLAN to have Jesus crucified to "pay" for the sins of men.

To me that would be an utterly disgusting thing for any supposedly all-wise benevolent God to do. And I've even explained to you why that very story makes no sense because Jesus didn't even die spiritually. But that would have been the wages of sin. So it doesn't even make any sense that he paid for the wages of sin if he was then resurrected and ascended to heaven.

So the fables are even lame.

There's not even sensible as fairy tales. Must less to believed as something a real supreme being would have been associated with.

Here you are worrying yourself sick because a God that you claim is "just" might cast innocent people into hell if you don't save them from the fate that God has planned for them.

Why should you care more about my fate than God himself?

That would suggest that you are compassionately superior to God.

And if God cares about my fate half as much as you claim to care, then he should be able to save me on his own without your help.

After all he's supposed to be omnipotent is he not?

Why should he need your help to save souls?

Evangelism itself is nothing more than a desperate cry from paranoid Christians screaming that the don't trust God to save innocent souls!

It's just utterly ridiculous.

~~~~

By the way, I'm on dial-up and can't watch your youtube video right now. I'll try to catch it later, but if it's just more evangelizing it's just a total waste of time.

All evangelism does is make a huge statement that Christians don't trust their own God to be just and save worthy souls on his own.

How can you not trust a supposedly just God to save worthy souls?

That's an oxymoron right there.

All you're doing is preaching to everyone that your God is so unjust and untrustworthy that even you don't trust him.

I have to be really careful the way I word things with you. Maybe "worry" is not the right word. How about concerned. I understand every thing you said. You should have been a lawyer. I would not have you believe anything in pretense.

No one can come to Christ unless the father draws them. He hasn't done that apparently. If you can't believe in Jesus, I would never have you fake it. That would do no good anyway. At least believe in the good He stood for. You don't believe in the miracles He did. There are eye witnessed accounts, and the apostles risked their lives just to preach a tale. That is just not logical to me. Just because there is so much darkness in the word that doesn't mean we can't have a little light.

I am in hook, line and sinker, and I will not judge God or reevaluate my belief system based on your experiences or clever wording. I don't believe this life is all there is then we are recycled. What we do and believe in this life determines our eternal destiny. If God hasn't gotten a message to you, He will. If he has and you rejected it, that is a different story. It is written "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true."

BTW, I believe I know what your gender is, but, if you don't mind my asking, why would you hide your gender on this forum?

[Divine Insight]

I have to be really careful the way I word things with you. Maybe "worry" is not the right word. How about concerned. I understand every thing you said. You should have been a lawyer. I would not have you believe anything in pretense.

Worried or concerned makes little difference to me. If your even concerned that God my allow a worthy person to fall through the cracks into hell, then I still can't see how you could say that you trust God.

In short, Burninglight, if a truly righteous God allows anyone to go to hell surly you must believe that he did the right thing. To even have a God sitting around in heaven morning because he had allowed decent people to fall through the cracks of his judgement system would only be an indication that he himself does not consider the system to be "perfect", and it's not a perfect system and he's the one who created that system what would that say about him?

In other words, these mythological fables cannot possibly be true. They don't even make any sense as fairy tales much less being worthy of being considered as an actual account of a supposedly perfect all-wise omniscient supreme being.

The God in these fables is necessarily grossly flawed. Especially if you're going to take the stance that he would allow non-deserving people fall through the cracks of his justice system as you seem to be "concerned" with.

No one can come to Christ unless the father draws them. He hasn't done that apparently.

Well, if you truly believe that then why are you concerned at all? When God is ready he make his move. Have a little faith in the righteousness of your God.

If you can't believe in Jesus, I would never have you fake it. That would do no good anyway. At least believe in the good He stood for.

I absolutely believe in the good that Jesus stood for. What I reject is the Christians nailing him to the Old Testament as the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham and then using his name to spread hatred about things that Jesus himself rebuked.

Where did Jesus ever tell anyone that they need to support the Old Testament as the verbatim word of God? Where did Jesus tell anyone to renounce homosexuals or same-gender marriage? Where did Jesus even tell anyone to constantly argue with people who don't believe in him? The Christians use Jesus to hold up a whole lot of immoral stuff that Jesus didn't even teach. I have no problem with Jesus as a man. It's only when he's being held up a the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham that things get ugly.

I have no problems with the moral values that Jesus taught. If I were to have a conversation with Jesus on moral values it wouldn't be much of a conversation because all we'd be doing is nodding at each other in agreement.

In fact, how am I supposed to "follow" or "obey" the moral values of someone who thinks like me? It can hardly be said that I'm following someone else when they have the same moral values as myself. At best I could stand side-by-side with Jesus in agreement. No need to "obey".

You don't believe in the miracles He did. There are eye witnessed accounts, and the apostles risked their lives just to preach a tale. That is just not logical to me. Just because there is so much darkness in the word that doesn't mean we can't have a little light.

I don't need to believe in the Hebrew mythology to have light in my life. In fact, I'm being quite honest when I say that it's a very dark picture from my perspective. I have tons of problems with the behavior attributed to the God of Abraham. According to these fables he attempts to "solve" all his problems using truly crude and absurd methods. Moreover they never even solve any of his problems according to these fables.

Here's some examples.

1. God curses the serpent to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his days.

That's a very crude and rude (even violent) reaction to a problem. Moreover, did it even serve as a "solution" to the problem? Evidently not, because according to these fables the evil demon has continued to beguile humans ever since non-stop.

So not only was it a crude ignorant and violent reaction to the problem at hand, but it wasn't even a wise solution. It didn't even solve the fundamental problem.

In fact, it failed so dramatically that the evil demon was able to eventually beguile every mortal person on earth until their every thought was evil. Which brings us to this God's second crude, rude, and violent attempt to solve the problem.

2. God floods the entire planet to kill all the sinners including new born babies, not to mention all the innocent animals.

I have extreme problems with this story. First off, why didn't this all-wise God nip this crap in the bud before it go so far out of hand? Any wise person will tell you that if you see that things are starting to get out of hand deal with them swiftly before they become a major problem. But no, this God waits until the whole planet is corrupt. Then he deals with the problem in a very crude manner killing babies and animals in the process.

Moreover, he saves Noah and his family including some in-laws. All of which could not have been "Sin-free" because according to these fables no mortal man is sin-free. So if he wants to drown out sinners why is he playing favorites with Noah's family of sinners?

Surely you can see why this makes no sense to me. In my mind, a truly all-wise God could have easily dealt with this problem quite easily. First off, if this God has no problem killing sinners why didn't he just give the sinning people heart-attacks at the moment they were about commit a sin? Then he could have weeded out the sinners and hopefully have some decent people left to work with and the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place.

And if none of his entire creation was capable of being decent people then what does that say about him as the creator? He must not be a very good creator if every single soul he creates turns out to be a hapless criminal.

A creator has to take some responsibility for what it creates. You can't have a creator creating nothing but sinners and then blaming them for it. Clearly there would be something grossly wrong in his design if that were the case and he'd have no one to blame but himself.

Even the flood itself was uncalled for. Even if he allowed things to get this far out of hand all he would need to do is wave his magic wand and make every sterile and refuse to implant souls in their children. Then they'd all be gone within a single generation naturally. No need to flood out all the animals, or the babies. Everyone would have a chance to grow to maturity before they finally died.

I mean, hey, this God is supposed to have infinite patience. Surly waiting for a single generation to pass would not have been a big deal for God. Flooding them out could only have been the act of an impatient God.

So again, you've got this God in these mythologies doing totally unwise (basically utterly stupid) things, and he's supposed to be an "all-wise" infinitely patient supreme being but he's attempting to "solve" his problems with crude rude tactics that we'd expect from a barroom drunkard.

And by the way, did this even"solve" the problem? No, it didn't!

It didn't even solve the problem. Men just continued to sin anyway. So you've got this God who tries all these different crude rude things to 'solve' his problems and they never produce a solution anyway. Where is there any wisdom in that?

What does he do then? According to the Christians he basically gives up and tosses in the towel. He finally realizes that the men "HE CREATED" are simply incapable of not becoming sinners. (why didn't he already realize that before?) Isn't he supposed to know everything?

So he supposedly sends his son to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of men because they are clearly unable to quit sinning in spite of God cursing serpents to crawl in their bellies and flooding out the planet.

And now we're supposed to believe that if we accept this act of grace we'll be permitted into his heavenly kingdom even though we're not truly worthy of it on our own merit anyway.

And you call this story LIGHT?

I call it utter DARKNESS!

It's basically a story that proclaims that both mankind and their God creator are totally inept. God would be inept because he was unable to create a human soul who isn't naturally inclined to become a sinner. And mankind would be inept because of the mere fact that he is the creation of such an inept God.

So where's the LIGHT?

That this totally inept God has finally decided to accept us on Grace and forgive us for HIS total ineptitude as a creator?

From my perspective this is the saddest fairy tale ever written. After reading it I would no only feel deeply sorrow for the humans who had been created by this inept God, but I would also even feel extreme sorrow for the God himself as he would be one truly sad being.

I can't help it, but this is what these stories appear to be saying to me.

I am in hook, line and sinker, and I will not judge God or reevaluate my belief system based on your experiences or clever wording.

I'm not asking you to. But it saddens me to think that you are torturing yourself by being so "concerned" that any innocent person might fall through the extremely wide cracks of this God's totally inept system of "Justice".

You're concern in this matter only suggest that you see the justice system of God to be on very shaky ground yourself.

If you had total faith in God you wouldn't be the slightest bit concerned about anyone else's 'salvation' because you would have total trust in God to always do what's right and to never lose a decent person "Through the Cracks".

How could there even be any "cracks" in the justice system of a perfect God's justice system?

If God is perfect and his justice system is perfectly righteous, then you have absolutely no need at all to be "concerned" that any decent person would ever fall though the cracks of God's perfect justice system.

So if you truly trust in God you shouldn't be concerned about anyone's salvation but your own.

I don't believe this life is all there is then we are recycled. What we do and believe in this life determines our eternal destiny.

I'm not asking you to believe in anything, or to quit believing in anything.

I too have problems believing in a spiritless world. Not because I personally fear death, I don't. But at the same time it does seem like such a waste of universe to only live for a mere human lifespan and that's that.

So I do believe that there is a spiritual essence to reality if only because I hate to see a universe go to waste. But does that then mean that I'm stuck with having to believe in the Hebrew mythology?

Why not believe Zeus of the Greeks?

There are countless God myths to chose from why be limited by the Hebrew's folklore? I realize that you don't see the full potential of some of the Eastern Mystical views, but trust me, they are as widely diverse as the Abrahamic religoins (maybe even more so). There are some really beautiful pictures of eternal spiritual life to choose from.

You say that you are attracted to LIGHT.

Well trust me, some of the Eastern Mystical ideas are extremely BRIGHT.

Far brighter than any of the Mediterranean creation myths.

There are even some truly beautiful creation myths from Europe concerning "Faery Lore". And yes, you might at first sight think, "Oh bother now he's talking about fairy tales as if I should take them seriously". But truly some people do. And if you believe in angels, why should it be so hard to believe in faeries?

Although I confess it's best not to take them too literally. They work far better if you accept them as spiritual parables.

If God hasn't gotten a message to you, He will. If he has and you rejected it, that is a different story. It is written "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true."

Well there goes that derogatory Christian mindset again, "Let every man be a liar".

The Christians are so anxious to condemn all men as being sinners, and liars, and totally unworthy. They really have no choice. The Hebrew fables are so riddled with utter absurdities that the Christians feel compelled to blame it on someone, so they blame all the failings of this God on mankind, and refuse to hear that any of it is the fault of the creator of mankind.

BTW, I believe I know what your gender is, but, if you don't mind my asking, why would you hide your gender on this forum?

I didn't hide it, I just never filled it in. I'm a 63 year old retired male physicist.

And I'm totally at peace with myself, nature, and with any God that might exist.

If any God (be it the God of the Hebrews or any other God) would cast me into a place of eternal damnation, I can only guarantee you that such a God would necessarily be a very unrighteous demon. I have never done anything in my entire life to deserve such a hideous fate.

If there exists a truly "righteous" God, I can rest assured that when I die I'll go straight to 7th heaven. Not because I've earned it, but simply because I've never done anything that would warrant being denied it.

[Burninglight]

Wow, you have really given this some thought. You give the best argument I have ever hear much better that Dawkins and you are more a threat to the Abrahamic faiths than anyone I have met.
You can see yourself going to heaven not because you deserve it but you haven't done anything that would keep you from it. I respect your view, but I can't see myself ion those shoes, because I can identify with Paul. What I want to do that is good I don't and what I don't want to do that is bad I do. I really believe I would be the most miserable person in the world if Christ wasn't born of a virgin and didn't rise from the dead.

You have convinced me not to be worried about your soul. I do have other concerns; for instance, I am very much concerned not about what it is in the Bible I don't understand; it is what I do understand.

All you say doesn't help my faith. In fact, it grieves my spirit in a very strange way. I have invested my whole life in Christianity. There is turning back for me. According to what you say, I will be dying a fool for Christ. You are only a couple years older than me, and you appear to be very set in your ways. However, what is not possible with man is possible with God. I hope you come to the knowledge of truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, the ruth and the life" No one comes to God except through Him. You, however, have found another way, but to what god? I mean no disrespect ot you. I am just like you in that I call it the way i see it.

[Divine Insight]

According to what you say, I will be dying a fool for Christ.

Well I wouldn't go as far to say that. Jesus himself taught great moral values. There's nothing foolish in living the way that he taught. I basically live the way he taught too, but not because I'm following his advice. I simple agree with his moral values.

So what's foolish about living good moral values?

Even if atheism were true and you just died when you die you'd never know it. So what would be the problem at that point?

And if an Eastern Mystical view of spirituality is true you'd be safe as well.

The only threat you'd have would be the wrath of Jesus (or the God of Abraham) and since you've got that covered then you're as safe as a person can be. You're guaranteed spiritual victory no matter what happens.

The only way your belief in "The Christ" would be foolish is if you actually bent over backwards to cater to the religion in ways that are truly uncomfortable for you.

But like I say, do you really need to interpret it that way?

I think there's plenty of room to believe in Jesus even as "The Christ" and still be relaxed and happy about that. Rather than being so concerned about the salvation of others why not just offer assistance to those who show a real interest in the religion and basically ignore those who don't believe in it.

Didn't Jesus himself instruct his disciples not to cast pearls before swine?

Isn't that the same as Jesus teaching his disciples not to bother trying to save people who aren't interested?

So turn your efforts toward more positive things helping people who already show an interest in the religion.

Going around trying to save the souls of non-believers isn't serving Jesus. He said not to cast pearls before swine didn't he?

So why bother doing that? It's not anything that Jesus recommended anyway.

You should be able to serve Jesus in a way that you wouldn't even feel foolish about it even if he turned out to be a total work of fiction.

~~~~

[Burninglight]

According to what you say, I will be dying a fool for Christ.

Well I wouldn't go as far to say that. Jesus himself taught great moral values. There's nothing foolish in living the way that he taught. I basically live the way he taught too, but not because I'm following his advice. I simple agree with his moral values.

So what's foolish about living good moral values?

Even if atheism were true and you just died when you die you'd never know it. So what would be the problem at that point?

And if an Eastern Mystical view of spirituality is true you'd be safe as well.

The only threat you'd have would be the wrath of Jesus (or the God of Abraham) and since you've got that covered then you're as safe as a person can be. You're guaranteed spiritual victory no matter what happens.

The only way your belief in "The Christ" would be foolish is if you actually bent over backwards to cater to the religion in ways that are truly uncomfortable for you.

But like I say, do you really need to interpret it that way?

I think there's plenty of room to believe in Jesus even as "The Christ" and still be relaxed and happy about that. Rather than being so concerned about the salvation of others why not just offer assistance to those who show a real interest in the religion and basically ignore those who don't believe in it.

Didn't Jesus himself instruct his disciples not to cast pearls before swine?

Isn't that the same as Jesus teaching his disciples not to bother trying to save people who aren't interested?

So turn your efforts toward more positive things helping people who already show an interest in the religion.

Going around trying to save the souls of non-believers isn't serving Jesus. He said not to cast pearls before swine didn't he?

So why bother doing that? It's not anything that Jesus recommended anyway.

You should be able to serve Jesus in a way that you wouldn't even feel foolish about it even if he turned out to be a total work of fiction.

~~~~

I cannot gainsay anything you say here. I am compelled to agree.

[Burninglight]

Divine Insight:
You said, "If any God (be it the God of the Hebrews or any other God) would cast me into a place of eternal damnation, I can only guarantee you that such a God would necessarily be a very unrighteous demon. I have never done anything in my entire life to deserve such a hideous fate."
I struggled with this thought myself, but when I really think anout it we don't deserve eternal happiness either

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight:
You said, "If any God (be it the God of the Hebrews or any other God) would cast me into a place of eternal damnation, I can only guarantee you that such a God would necessarily be a very unrighteous demon. I have never done anything in my entire life to deserve such a hideous fate."
I struggled with this thought myself, but when I really think anout it we don't deserve eternal happiness either

The way I see it the religion doesn't give a lot of choices. You're either damned, or saved. There doesn't seem to be any other choice.

The religion doesn't give you any way to "politely decline" the offer in a respectable way.

Now doesn't that sound suspicious to you?

~~~~~

I mean, if this religion represented a genuine divine being don't you think this God would have made provisions for someone to simply politely decline his offers?

Shouldn't I be able to say to this God, "Gee God, I appreciate everything you tried to do for me, but to be perfectly honest with you, (and I should be able to be honest with this God right?), I'm really not interested in your eternal heaven, and I'd certainly rather not spend eternity being tortured in hell, so could I simply bow out of the whole mess altogether? Could you just let me perish away like the atheists believe? Hopefully with as painless of a death as you can provide for me? No hard feelings on my behalf, I'd just rather not play your game now that I've read about it and see all the fine print."

~~~

I mean, seriously, what's wrong with that? Shouldn't we be able to decline this God's offer politely and sincerely with honesty without being damned to hell?

That's not even an opinion. In this religion you either conform to whats being demanded of you, or your are damned!

~~~

And what is being demanded of you REALLY?

Are you simply being asked to live a life of the moral values of Jesus?

No!

You are being asked to support the whole entire cannon of fables and everything that's in them in "Jesus' name"!

You must jump on the social bigotry wagon and support the idea that God hates homosexuality. You must jump on the social religious wagon and support the idea that this God hates everyone who refuses to jump on this wagon.

In fact, if this were allowed to go to extremes, you could potentially end up being told to behave like the Taliban in "God's Name". Because there are male-chauvinistic statements toward women all through the Bible. And Jesus didn't specifically rebuke them.

They are all through the Old Testament, and then Paul regurgitates those in the New Testament in Jesus' name (not even something that Jesus himself supported).

So either you support this religion and everything that is stated in the entire cannon. including the ramblings of Paul, or you "Go to Hell" and there is no polite way of getting out of it.

~~~~

This is just nonsense. Christianity isn't about following Jesus Burninglight.

Christianity is a religion that holds Jesus up as an excuse to demand that you support the entire religion or you can "Go to Hell".

And there is no "polite option" for avoiding the demands of this entire religion.

~~~~

I personally don't believe that Jesus himself would support what Christianity has become. The Gospels themselves have Jesus renouncing teachings from the Old Testament. He renounced the judging of others and the stoning of sinners to death, and instead he taught people not to judge one another. He renounced the seeking of revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and instead he taught to forgive and forget as in turning the other cheek.

Nowhere does Jesus suggest to anyone that they need to accept the Torah as the "Verbatim Word of God".

Nowhere does Jesus predict the coming of Paul to add to, or finish his message.

Yet Christianity basically demands that we must accept the things in the Old Testament that Jesus didn't specifically rebuke, and that we must also accept the writings of Paul which Jesus never predicted, or even remotely suggested would be coming.

I'm convinced that, at the very best, Christianity is a grossly superstitious and wildly misguided notion of who Jesus was and what he stood for. At worst it's an outright purposeful scam. Either entirely fabricated as a fictional story, or sparked by the life and times of some poor guy who was crucified for rejecting the teachings of the Torah and calling the Pharisees hypocrites. (I personally feel that the latter is the most likely scenario)

~~~~

I'm not personally impressed by the claims of a virgin birth, or of a God talking from a cloud, or of Jesus supposedly having performed all sorts of miracles that no one outside of the Biblical fables ever saw or recorded. I personally don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead and descended into heaven. Or that a multitude of saints were jostled from their graves and were resurrected at the same time and went into the Holy City to show themselves to the people there, where again there is absolutely no independent historical noise of this supposedly miraculous event.

I sincerely and honestly don't believe any of that. I highly suspect that if he lived at all, he was probably a mystic Jew who had learned much of the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism (which was at at its peak at that time in history). He rejected the teachings of the Torah, and instead he taught the moral values of Buddhism from his Jewish perspective, and he was crucified for his views thus giving rise to the New Testament rumors.

I seriously believe that this is a far more likely scenario than to believe that he was the "sacrificial lamb" of a jealous God who needed to have someone nailed to a pole before he could forgive the sins of mankind. (That story I personally see as being totally outrageous and without merit)

I don't know how deeply convicted you are to believing in the religion. But I'm probably just as deeply convinced that it's can't possibly be true verbatim as the Christian Cannon suggests.

To me, it's no big deal. I don't need to believe in a God who will 'save my soul' and offer me eternal life in some supposed paradise. If when I die I just go to sleep and never wake up again, then so be it. Would that truly be so bad? I would never even know that I had died (much less that I had ever lived).

It would certainly be a darn site better than being cast into an eternal hell fire of damnation simply because I couldn't believe outrageous stories.

And to be perfectly honest with you, the idea of living for eternity in a so-called 'heaven' where I'd have to serve a God, that according to the biblical stories I don't even agree with, would be just as huge of a nightmare as going to hell.

So the religion has nothing to offer me really. The afterlife it has to offer doesn't appeal to me. The threat of eternal damnation that it threatens doesn't scare me because from my perspective it would be far too outrageously unfair to be justified by any truly righteous God.

So it has nothing to offer me. Atheism is a prettier picture from my vantage point.

~~~~

Having said that, I've also come to the realization that reality isn't so cut-and-dry. I'm not really stuck with having to "believe" in either Christianity OR in a purely atheistic existence. Other spiritual philosophies and creation myths, and religions do exist. And I've looked into them.

From my perspective some of the Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies actually sound more reasonable to me than either Christianity or atheism. And so I place my faith in the ideal that perhaps something along these lines is far more likely to be the truth of reality.

Therefore I'm not "stuck" between the "irresistible force" of Christianity and the "immovable rock" of atheism.

Instead, I float like a lily-pad on the endless river of life from the mountains of Taoism to the sea of eternity.

It's a beautiful ride with a wonderful view.

If I'm cast into an eternal hell fire for that, so be it. Any God who could be so ruthlessly cruel wouldn't have been worthy of my worship anyway.

How nasty does a God need to be before it becomes a demon?

[Burninglight]

You said, "And to be perfectly honest with you, the idea of living for eternity in a so-called 'heaven' where I'd have to serve a God, that according to the biblical stories I don't even agree with, would be just as huge of a nightmare as going to hell." I could almost agree here, except, Hell would be a merciful place compared to being in God's presence in heaven if one is not hid in Christ.

There are Christian friends of mine that believe that is what happens: you just die as if you never existed, but I believe it happens the way it is in the Bible. I don't understand how someone can go to hell forever in torment; for instance, I'd think how much evil can a person do in such as short life span to merit a non negotiable eternal damnation where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth forever in torment.

But I look at it like God is the Creator so He gets to say the way it will be independent of us. If an artist decides to boche a painting or a sculpture what right does the creation have to say to the Creator "What do you think you're doing?" The Bible states that God has placed before us life and death and He would that we choose life. Maybe His eternal laws don't allow that we be put in a state of nonexistence. People refuse to believe in God for different reasons. It is written that "there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death" It also states that we shouldn't lean to our own understanding and in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

It is also written that "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation." I believe heaven is peace, love and happiness for all eternity with unspeakable joy. I want that joy and happiness. You have a view, IMHO, that would take me somewhere where angels fear to thread. I respect you power to chose. God has made you a free moral agent to chose or reject Him.

He could have made us all complaint automatons, but he made us in His image and likeness. Words are real things, they can justify us or condemn us; they can bless or curse. Out or it are the issues of life! I believe Jesus is God's word incarnate. Jesus taught us that God's only law is love. If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves we have fulfilled all the law and the prophets! Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things and we all get to choose what we will do with Him!