Proving that Mormonism is false

[Nickman]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

[Goat]

Well, there's a lot to cover here. I think one basic is this: We know with as much certainty as we know anything that the story in the Book of Mormon (BoM) did not happen. To the extent that LDS religion or theology claims that it did, it is wrong.

There are two big habits that will trigger hyper skepticism in me. One, when someone takes a lot of time out to explain WHY evidence that should be there if the story is true can not be found, and the other one is to complain on how much giving someone else equal rights will be discriminatory against them.

[Jax Agnesson]

The mythology of any religion, if taken literally, sounds ridiculous.

Some religious stories sound ridiculous if taken seriously, some don't. It depends on both the story and the reader.
Same is true of secular myths.
Compare, for example, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, the Prose Edda.

[Nickman]

Well, there's a lot to cover here. I think one basic is this: We know with as much certainty as we know anything that the story in the Book of Mormon (BoM) did not happen. To the extent that LDS religion or theology claims that it did, it is wrong.

There are two big habits that will trigger hyper skepticism in me. One, when someone takes a lot of time out to explain WHY evidence that should be there if the story is true can not be found, and the other one is to complain on how much giving someone else equal rights will be discriminatory against them.

I watched a video on youtube of a man (Bill McKeever) who shows how the gold plates are not even plausible. He presented a very thorough examination that would lead anyone to the conclusion that they were not plausible. The funny and irritating parts were the explanations from LDS scholars which contradicted their own church history and in order to make that fit they had to double back and find other loop-holes to make their case. Its like a dog chasing its tail. The sad part is at this individual doesn't use the same scrutiny and research to dismiss his own beliefs pertaining to Jesus. You can see several times where his arguments are sound, but if he applied the same method and thought process to his own belief, he could easily see his own error in believing what he does believe to be true. Plus the prayer and testimony at the end really puts the icing on the cake.

Please watch the video and be converted to atheism tonight. Or just realize that Mormonism is a false religion made on lies and deceit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw2PuGq9 ... re=related

[Nickman]

The LDS scriptures contain many contradictions as well as endless ramblings Here are a few of my favorites;

And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."

Original 1830 Text
Alma 15, p. 303 yea, I know that he alloteth unto men , yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills

Altered Text
Alma 29:4yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, according to their wills

The above scripture was altered because it conflicted with a revelation given to Smith stating that God revoked his commandment as seen below;

Doctrine & Covenants 56:4,5 "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all of this upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord. Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants ..."

Unalterable? I guess he is god so he can contradict himself.

How about these?

Original 1803 Text
2 Nephi 12, p. 117... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.

Altered Text
2 Nephi 30:6 (1840 edition)... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

The LDS church was racist as hell. Still is IMO. These few contradictions/altered texts indicate that the BoM is not, the most correct book as said by Smith.

Sunday, 28 1841 The Church History--I spent the day in the council with the Twelve Apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
Joseph Smith


I think I have shown that Mormonism is false and no one has been able to deny that or refute it.

[Clownboat]

The LDS scriptures contain many contradictions as well as endless ramblings Here are a few of my favorites;

And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."

Original 1830 Text
Alma 15, p. 303 yea, I know that he alloteth unto men , yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills

Altered Text
Alma 29:4yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, according to their wills

The above scripture was altered because it conflicted with a revelation given to Smith stating that God revoked his commandment as seen below;

Doctrine & Covenants 56:4,5 "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all of this upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord. Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants ..."

Unalterable? I guess he is god so he can contradict himself.

How about these?

Original 1803 Text
2 Nephi 12, p. 117... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.

Altered Text
2 Nephi 30:6 (1840 edition)... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

The LDS church was racist as hell. Still is IMO. These few contradictions/altered texts indicate that the BoM is not, the most correct book as said by Smith.

Sunday, 28 1841 The Church History--I spent the day in the council with the Twelve Apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
Joseph Smith


I think I have shown that Mormonism is false and no one has been able to deny that or refute it.

You have done well and you didn't even have to get into horses and/or smelters that should be here but obviously (to me) are not.

[Nickman]

The LDS scriptures contain many contradictions as well as endless ramblings Here are a few of my favorites;

And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."

Original 1830 Text
Alma 15, p. 303 yea, I know that he alloteth unto men , yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills

Altered Text
Alma 29:4yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, according to their wills

The above scripture was altered because it conflicted with a revelation given to Smith stating that God revoked his commandment as seen below;

Doctrine & Covenants 56:4,5 "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all of this upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord. Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants ..."

Unalterable? I guess he is god so he can contradict himself.

How about these?

Original 1803 Text
2 Nephi 12, p. 117... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.

Altered Text
2 Nephi 30:6 (1840 edition)... and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

The LDS church was racist as hell. Still is IMO. These few contradictions/altered texts indicate that the BoM is not, the most correct book as said by Smith.

Sunday, 28 1841 The Church History--I spent the day in the council with the Twelve Apostles at the house of President Young, conversing with them upon a variety of subjects. Brother Joseph Fielding was present, having been absent four years on a mission to England. I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
Joseph Smith


I think I have shown that Mormonism is false and no one has been able to deny that or refute it.

You have done well and you didn't even have to get into horses and/or smelters that should be here but obviously (to me) are not.

Thank you, I was hoping to get more of a debate on here and hear some rebuttals but so far not much. I think most LDS realize that you can't refute this stuff, so they just plug their ears and close their eyes.

[Nickman]

A few more reasons why the LDS faith is false and made by man;

During a sermon criticizing the federal government, Church president Brigham Young said "If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain (those with dark skin), the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."
-Journal of Discourses 10:104–111-

LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen said in 1954: "I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it."
-Race Problems - As They Affect The Church, Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954-

A church lesson manual for adolescent boys that is in use in 2011 contains a 1976 quote from Spencer W. Kimball that says "We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question".

The LDS document is online at: “Lesson 31: Choosing an Eternal Companion,� Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3, p. 127

Race was a problem in the past, and the ban against blacks just as it was lifted in American society was also lifted by the LDS church. They had the same mentality as the world did about blacks and segregation. Now they pretend its all ok and they were not fostering beliefs against race.

Im glad that the LDS are really good at recording history because even if it is discriminating they write it down and get busted for it later down the road. Then they wiggle and stretch the truth

[Jax Agnesson]

I have tried reading the Book of Mormon, just in an attempt to be fair-minded. But I found the 'Shakespearean English' so poor, I couldn't concentrate on what the book was trying to say.

[Nickman]

I have tried reading the Book of Mormon, just in an attempt to be fair-minded. But I found the 'Shakespearean English' so poor, I couldn't concentrate on what the book was trying to say.

It is a poor read. I have read it all the way through but not without pain and suffering and falling asleep a few times. I read, "and it came to pass " at least a thousand times in every other verse. I now use it to keep my couch level. Its more useful that way.

[Nickman]

I have tried reading the Book of Mormon, just in an attempt to be fair-minded. But I found the 'Shakespearean English' so poor, I couldn't concentrate on what the book was trying to say.

It is a poor read. I have read it all the way through but not without pain and suffering and falling asleep a few times. I read, "and it came to pass " at least a thousand times in every other verse. I now use it to keep my couch level. Its more useful that way.