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Justin108
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:57 am  What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion? Reply with quote

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:38 am
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Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

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Oh and by the way... God didn't give up a damn thing. Where is Jesus now? In heaven. How was he "given up" if he is sitting snugly next to God?



Amazing.....If a man send his son to a war and he comes back alive....Does that mean his Father didn't suffer?
Wake up man....Understand before you talk. Go to bible school already.
Your post are all weak in understanding what the NT is about.

I never said Jesus didn't suffer. I said Jesus wasn't "given up".


I was wondering when you would use your "Oh you atheists wouldn't understand" cop out.

So back to the OP. Why did God HAVE to sacrifice Jesus?



I wasn't talking about the suffering of the son. It was about the suffering of the Father.

You see....You can't understand. How can anyone who does not believe in God even start to understand. Your foundation is weak and will crumble.

"Oh you atheists will never understand"
Are you going to debate or are you going to keep copping out?



Until you learn to do math.....You can't play with the teacher. It's pointless.
You get what I'm telling you? That's why we(Creationist) are all stupid when it comes to evolution....Right?
Now....study the bible with people that KNOW the bible then you may able to play.
.

Do you "know" the bible? Then why don't you answer the question?


Me knowing the bible means nothing to you.
Here is what the bible teaches....I know what it means to you.So why are you even asking this question?
It is only to try and destroy faith in God.....Right?



John 12 (NT)
23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

This does not answer my question. Read the OP and try again

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:06 am
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Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

Jesus' followers, still reeling from the disastrous end to his ministry and his failed Messianic insurrection against Roman authority, began to interpret "clues" from the Old Testament that perhaps the Messiah wouldn't necessarily be a military hero but a "spiritual" Messiah. From the depths of their devastation, they began to spiritualize and internalize his message, ministry, and its effect on them and began inviting or telling others about his teachings and life. His living on in their sharing of his teachings gave rise to his living on via a resurrection and of course, eventually to "sightings" of the resurrected Jesus by select members, his closest followers.

Was Jesus' death necessary to appease God's wrath concerning humankind's sin? Absolutely not. If that is the "best plan" or "only way" a supposedly Infinite Being can come up with as a solution to the finitude of those the Infinite Being created, something is seriously wrong with not only humankind but with its creator. And if God was "satisfied" that humanity's sin was cancelled in this episode of indescribable brutality, cruelty, and sadistic torture and death, then who in their right mind would willingly serve such evil? That is not love by any description.

Sacrifice, whether animal or human, is an institution set up by humans in an attempt to appease a deity that seems remote and in many cases arbitrary. In sacrifice, one offers the best of what one has in the hopes the deity will not become agitated and punish the giver. Prayers, appeals, and incantations are recited to show one's devotion, obeisance, and commitment to serving the deity.

It has always appeared strange to me that a god/God who in the Old Testament forbids and punishes for human sacrifice demands a human sacrifice in the New Testament for the once and for all remission of humankind's sin. Does anyone else see a contradiction in that? Think

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:45 pm
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Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:02 pm
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Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.



Read the NT.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:30 am
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Many individuals do not understand that the bible is a book which speaks of spiritual things to awaken the spiritual being within. For the spiritual being within has been held captive in chains of ignorance due to our lack of spiritual knowledge. Now jesus did not die for the sins of humanity this is another selfish action of humanity to make an individual the scapegoat for their sins which is self centered actions. God sent jesus like all other prophets to spread god consciousness which would be selflessness and genuine love not conditional love which most of the world is well acquainted with. Jesus was killed because his teachings awakened a consciousness in individuals that threatened the current structure of the government. Jesus did not die for the sins of men jesus died for preaching the gospel. Humanity must deny self and take responsibility for own actions and stop lying that god sent jesus here to die for our sins. Jesus came to do the will of god which was teach and like those before him he paid the price for his teachings went against the selfish consciousness of the current world and so he was killed

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:32 am
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Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.



Read the NT.

Hey did you hear? They discovered life on other planets! And one of the aliens now lives on earth! Proof? Read the Superman comics

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:37 am
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Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.



Read the NT.

Hey did you hear? They discovered life on other planets! And one of the aliens now lives on earth! Proof? Read the Superman comics




Im sorry but that still dosent explain the fireballs (3) thats showed up in CA today Justin108 and a Meteor that injured 1,000 Russians yesterday.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:24 am
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Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


I suppose God didn't "have to" do anything at all. However, I think He intentionally made things such that man would be free to fall, and He would be willing to purify us all again by taking our place. Remember, on the cross, Jesus actually "became" sin. When he became sin, his purity was passed to all mankind. It was a supernatural "switchover" that saved us.

Peace!
brian

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:38 am
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Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?


As the Bible shows, Jesus had right to forgive sins even before hid death. Therefore death was not needed for forgiving.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus allowed the murder to show his faithfulness to God and for to be example of how faithful his disciples should be to God. And that way God could also show the reward for being faithful, by raising Jesus from the death. At least if you believe in the Bible.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:07 am
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briandc wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


I suppose God didn't "have to" do anything at all. However, I think He intentionally made things such that man would be free to fall, and He would be willing to purify us all again by taking our place.

And I'm saying he didn't HAVE to take our place.

God "took a bullet" for us so to speak... but he didn't have to. He could have made the bullet just disappear if he wanted to. Why didn't he?

Not to mention the fact that HE was the one who shot the bullet. He created hell himself and now he's saving us from it?

Who sends us to hell? God
So why does he have to kill Jesus in order to stop himself from sending us to hell?

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