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Justin108
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:57 am  What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion? Reply with quote

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 51: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:38 pm
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This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 52: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:57 pm
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einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see, not in a hotel room after a nice long life.
Thank God for the proof of life after death....Or else be like the Jew, that still wait for the signs

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 53: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:06 pm
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Tex wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see,

Well I didn't see a damn thing so I guess it wasn't very effective now was it?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 54: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:01 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see,

Well I didn't see a damn thing so I guess it wasn't very effective now was it?



To you no....But to Billions of people before you it was and Billions today.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 55: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:38 pm
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Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Tex wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see,

Well I didn't see a damn thing so I guess it wasn't very effective now was it?



To you no....But to Billions of people before you it was and Billions today.

Did you see Jesus rise from the dead?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 56: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:15 pm
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Tex wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see, not in a hotel room after a nice long life.
Thank God for the proof of life after death....Or else be like the Jew, that still wait for the signs

Sounds more like a metaphor when you say it like that. Do you take everything in the bible, literally? The part that I'm constantly hearing about is the fact that God is now able to forgive us for sinning because Jesus, died. His resurrection doesn't really seem to come up very much. Maybe its because it makes the sacrifice a little less powerful. "He gave his only begotten son!.... then got him back."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 57: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:52 pm
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Tex wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The upshot is that according to this theory, God created humanity with the capacity to sin, but without the capacity to make amends for having sinned against Him. In effect, this doctrine cast God in the role of setting a trap for humanity from which He knew from the start, humanity could not escape by its own efforts. Again according the Christian dogma, God did this to prepare the way for a divine redeemer. God, the first person of the trinity sends his son, the second person of the trinityto be killed for mankind. In this way God the father can be reconciled with mankind's transgressions. Not only does this scenario sound impossible to comprehend since it is contradictory of our conception of the Eternal as a benevolent Creator, it becomes a fallen deck of cards since it rests on the presumption of nonbiblical concepts vis-a-vis the Hebrew Bible which is the foundational text not only of Jews, but for Christians as well.

Specifically, the dogma of original sin is not found in the Hebrew Bible. The dogma of human sacrifice as vicarious atonement is condemned and refuted in the Hebrew Bible. The concept of the trinity is anathema to what is stated in the Hebrew Bible. a text which is accepted as being either of divine origin or inspiration by believing Christians and Jews.

A house is only as strong as its foundation and in this case the foundation is broken beyond repair.



Yet again....It was not his death that was to be preached......But the resurrection of life through Christ.
For if Christ did not rise from the dead and conquer hell... then Christianity is useless.

How would one rise from the dead if no one would see and believe. It was done(his death) for us to see, not in a hotel room after a nice long life.
Thank God for the proof of life after death....Or else be like the Jew, that still wait for the signs


Perhaps you missed my point. Augustine who is revered as one the great fathers of the Church wrote the following:"If mankind had not fallen, the son of man would not have come...Why did he come into the world? To save sinners. There was no other reason for his coming into the world". But the idea of Adamic original sin is not Biblical, at least according to the Hebrew Bible, what you probably refer to as the Old Testament. It was developed by Irenaeus and culminated with Augustine.
If you believe in a concept which has no basis in the OT (which as a believing Christian you hold to be either the word of God or inspired by God) then everything that follows -the incarnation and crucifixtion can be made believable-otherwise there does not seem to be a purpose for all of it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 58: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 am
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Morphine wrote:
Maybe its because it makes the sacrifice a little less powerful. "He gave his only begotten son!.... then got him back."


Exactly, since the age of 12 I've wondered what jesus really sacrificed when he "shuffled off his mortal coil" and became a god. When I ask how is that such a great sacrifice all I get is "Well, it hurt really bad".
Rolling Eyes

IMO it's all utter nonsense held together loosely by fear and hope.

Why can't people understand that death is nothing to fear? Death is what makes Life so special. If Life was eternal it would be worthless.

And the hope placed in an imaginary father in the sky should instead be placed in our fellow man. The wasted energy, money and time devoted to imaginary gods simply boggles my mind. Sad

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 59: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:42 am
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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Justin108 wrote:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance; that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures - 1 Corinthians 15:3

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. - 1 John 4:10

For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. - Romans 3:25

He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins - Ephesians 1:7


It is true that Jesus is also sacrifice, but not in that meaning that forgiveness depends on his death.

Soldiers can be seen as sacrifice, when they give their life in war when serving their country. Maybe you have also heard about that? But no one thinks it is their death that was saving thing. Crucial thing was what they did in their life. Same is with Jesus. Jesus declared words of life so that we could become righteous and be saved. And by doing so he gained peoples hate and was eventually murdered. And so he became sacrifice for that job that he had. God knew that, but still was willing to send Jesus, because he knew it would be good and because he love people and want to give them opportunity to come back to him. And Jesus was loyal / faithful to God, even though he knew he had to suffer a lot.

Many people understand those parts wrongly, maybe because they don’t know that Jesus had right to forgive even before his death and he gave the same right for his disciples also. People should understand what the following scripture means.

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 60: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:51 am
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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1213 wrote:


Soldiers can be seen as sacrifice, when they give their life in war when serving their country. Maybe you have also heard about that? But no one thinks it is their death that was saving thing. Crucial thing was what they did in their life. Same is with Jesus. Jesus declared words of life so that we could become righteous and be saved. And by doing so he gained peoples hate and was eventually murdered. And so he became sacrifice for that job that he had. God knew that, but still was willing to send Jesus, because he knew it would be good and because he love people and want to give them opportunity to come back to him. And Jesus was loyal / faithful to God, even though he knew he had to suffer a lot.


The Soldier analogy fails because if the soldier could have managed his mission without dying, he would have. He does not die because he chose to. He did his mission because he chose to while accepting death as a necessary consequence.

God, on the other hand, does not HAVE to do anything. Jesus could have done his thing without dying at the end. In the soldier's case, death was an unavoidable part of the job. In God's case, there is no "unavoidable".

You seem to make the point that in Jesus' death, the news of his life spread. But I assure you, the news would have spread even further had the Romans failed to kill him. Don't you think news of a man that was immune to Roman swords would spread?

Jesus' death seems like an appeal to our emotions. It's like an emo kid cutting himself for his parents' attention. Jesus killed himself for our attention and then he blames us for it when he could have achieved the same success without dying. He did not HAVE to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. That's my point

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