Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[charles_hamm]

It would be reasonable to assume that if you believed in God and His messenger came and said let the Jews go, God demands it. You would. Since God does not force any to believe in him you have the freedom to deny His existence. That is free will.

Right. Free will. Except that I can read Exodus, and when I read Exodus, I can't help but note that the whole deal is simply shot through with God openly manipulating Pharaoh to achieve God's end of showing off to the Egyptians.

Actually God was never to blame in the first place. The blame was always on the fallible human for choosing not to heed the warnings of God.

The dude who hardened Pharaoh's heart multiple times just so he could send plagues to threaten the Egyptians isn't to blame for Pharaoh's actions?

Please read it again. Pharaoh hardened his heart in the beginning and God just rehardened it after some of the plagues. Pharaoh actually hardened his heart in the beginning.

[charles_hamm]

Apparently Free Will trumps the Right to Life, in the mind of the Christian's God. Why?

Because the reality is that we seem to have Free Will and many use it to kill. It has to be explained somehow, so Christians make Free Will the most Godly thing.

It's ad hoc reasoning. If we we had some evolved trait to not kill, Christians would say that killing is the one thing God wouldn't tolerate - that he alone was in charge of Life and Death.

There is no answer a theist can't answer, they are always right because they believe themselves to be right.

"Because God Did It." is the Omni-answer. Why this? Why that? Why anything?

Because God Did It.

An answer that can answer every question is a useless answer.

Why did God do it that way? Why didn't God make us all more like Jesus, without sin in our hearts?

Because God Did It. Don't ask so many questions and repent....

Apparently not since abortions are allowed to happen everyday.

That was my point, read again.

Free will is a Godly thing; whether it's the most or not I don't know.

That was my point, read again.

Actually there are plenty I can't answer. That's why I direct people to pray for the answers.

Why would that help?

I thought the Omni-answer was "God doesn't exist"?

No, that only answers one question, and means we have to explore and examine the world for the others.

So your point was that the woman's free will trumped the the right of her unborn babies life. It doesn't work it you apply it to the unborn baby. That was my point, read again.

So your point was that Free Will is a Godly thing. O.K.

Because God can answer your questions if you want to listen to Him.

Really? I sure have run into a lot of this answer as the fallback position when an atheist doesn't have any response to something I've said. Must just be me getting this answer so much.

[PhiloKGB]

Please read it again. Pharaoh hardened his heart in the beginning and God just rehardened it after some of the plagues. Pharaoh actually hardened his heart in the beginning.

Are you talking about Exodus 7-13 & 14? Look back at Exodus 7-3: "But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."

Really though, I can't even imagine how it's possible to read Exodus as anything other than God screwing with Pharaoh in order to terrorize the Egyptian people. This notion of Pharaoh having free will borders on the absurd.

[Goat]

Apparently not since abortions are allowed to happen everyday. Free will is a Godly thing; whether it's the most or not I don't know. Actually there are plenty I can't answer. That's why I direct people to pray for the answers. I thought the Omni-answer was "God doesn't exist"?

Please define 'Free Will'. Which of the couple of dozens of variaitions on that theme are you talking about?

Can you show that 'Free Will' exists, and is more than word salad and key word phrase to trot out to avoid questions?

[Tex]

There are plenty of people that are born with mental illness. These people also get on their knee and pray. (irony be thy name) Guess what they still are the same. But wait....there is medication that can help them....So they take it.

Now I will glady say ....If a person want to be gay ....Most of the time it's because they were born this way and cannot be faulted for that.
But to say now....That this is how it should be and no help is needed in this area is also close minded.

If people can't see the difference between the purpose of a man and a women.....It's because, as science has proved....It is due to a chemical imbalance. Therefore .....yes God made them this way, just like anyone else with chemical imbalances.

But due to the hate of people toward this illness....instead of trying to help, like they do for other illnesses, people always acts stupid for thing they don't understand.

The question is still there.....If science can make couples choose what they want their child to be from sex to sexuality.....Who would choose their child to be gay?

The only ones who could choose this would be a gay person. But for this moment in time ....only gay women can carry children. Still need sperm from a male....No need for the sex part of it. Now all you have to do is get men to have children and who really cares about being male or female or even married.( as per religion)

this is life.

Is homophobia also a mental illness or racism? Does a blackman really want to be white? Is it mental illness that has people believing in different gods to the one you believe in? Do you propose developing a pill to change their minds, surely they all want to?
If your god offers you the choice between your child being born with spina bifida and would suffer it's entire life (less than 20yrs) but would be a heterosexual OR your child will be born homosexual and live a productive and happy life for 70yrs or so. Which would you choose?

Are you saying that being gay is a choice? Be careful now.

To choose to hate a person is a choice in the normal world. However you can be born a killer..... Which is a metal imbalance from the beginning....Not like a hit man, who chooses to be a killer.

I don't understand how people can't see the difference.

[Goat]

There are plenty of people that are born with mental illness. These people also get on their knee and pray. (irony be thy name) Guess what they still are the same. But wait....there is medication that can help them....So they take it.

Now I will glady say ....If a person want to be gay ....Most of the time it's because they were born this way and cannot be faulted for that.
But to say now....That this is how it should be and no help is needed in this area is also close minded.

If people can't see the difference between the purpose of a man and a women.....It's because, as science has proved....It is due to a chemical imbalance. Therefore .....yes God made them this way, just like anyone else with chemical imbalances.

But due to the hate of people toward this illness....instead of trying to help, like they do for other illnesses, people always acts stupid for thing they don't understand.

The question is still there.....If science can make couples choose what they want their child to be from sex to sexuality.....Who would choose their child to be gay?

The only ones who could choose this would be a gay person. But for this moment in time ....only gay women can carry children. Still need sperm from a male....No need for the sex part of it. Now all you have to do is get men to have children and who really cares about being male or female or even married.( as per religion)

this is life.

Is homophobia also a mental illness or racism? Does a blackman really want to be white? Is it mental illness that has people believing in different gods to the one you believe in? Do you propose developing a pill to change their minds, surely they all want to?
If your god offers you the choice between your child being born with spina bifida and would suffer it's entire life (less than 20yrs) but would be a heterosexual OR your child will be born homosexual and live a productive and happy life for 70yrs or so. Which would you choose?

Are you saying that being gay is a choice? Be careful now.

To choose to hate a person is a choice in the normal world. However you can be born a killer..... Which is a metal imbalance from the beginning....Not like a hit man, who chooses to be a killer.

I don't understand how people can't see the difference.

No, that isn't what he said at all. Why don't you reread it, and see if you can point out where he said 'Being gay is a choice'. He gave two scenarios and asked which you would prefer. Isn't that so simple to understand?

[southern cross]

There are plenty of people that are born with mental illness. These people also get on their knee and pray. (irony be thy name) Guess what they still are the same. But wait....there is medication that can help them....So they take it.

Now I will glady say ....If a person want to be gay ....Most of the time it's because they were born this way and cannot be faulted for that.
But to say now....That this is how it should be and no help is needed in this area is also close minded.

If people can't see the difference between the purpose of a man and a women.....It's because, as science has proved....It is due to a chemical imbalance. Therefore .....yes God made them this way, just like anyone else with chemical imbalances.

But due to the hate of people toward this illness....instead of trying to help, like they do for other illnesses, people always acts stupid for thing they don't understand.

The question is still there.....If science can make couples choose what they want their child to be from sex to sexuality.....Who would choose their child to be gay?

The only ones who could choose this would be a gay person. But for this moment in time ....only gay women can carry children. Still need sperm from a male....No need for the sex part of it. Now all you have to do is get men to have children and who really cares about being male or female or even married.( as per religion)

this is life.

Is homophobia also a mental illness or racism? Does a blackman really want to be white? Is it mental illness that has people believing in different gods to the one you believe in? Do you propose developing a pill to change their minds, surely they all want to?
If your god offers you the choice between your child being born with spina bifida and would suffer it's entire life (less than 20yrs) but would be a heterosexual OR your child will be born homosexual and live a productive and happy life for 70yrs or so. Which would you choose?

Are you saying that being gay is a choice? Be careful now.

To choose to hate a person is a choice in the normal world. However you can be born a killer..... Which is a metal imbalance from the beginning....Not like a hit man, who chooses to be a killer.

I don't understand how people can't see the difference.

Is this in the dictionary under "non sequitur"?

[Bust Nak]

I'm not sure how well applying what you are calling our modern sense of justice would work. Actually killing people as a show of force lines up more than you think. America dropped atomic bombs as a show of force to make Japan surrender. The allies bombed cities that undoubtedly had civilians in them in order to stop an evil man.

Ok, I'll restate then: What you are saying doesn't gel with my sense of justice. Bombing civilians is a necessity evil at best and a war crime at worse.

Tell me. If you have a way of ending WW2 without killing a single civilian, would you do it? If you have a way of ending WW2 without killing a person, would you do it?

I'm not willing to place a decision to kill an entire group of people in the hands of a fallible human (me) who has no knowledge of their actual intentions. My point was as a human I can't condemn them because I lack the knowledge to know 100% what they intended by their actions. I can, however, look at the actions they took and determine that I may not believe them when they say they did not want to participate. I can give them the benefit of the doubt all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that God, who had the right to judge them, passed judgment for the acts of their leaders and possibly for their support of those actions.

Right, you trust God be just, but my point was if one were not to start with this belief, God being just would not be the conclusion from reading these three stories.

He did kill Jewish male children as a form of population control.

But my question was, would you accept the reasoning that the pharaoh was justified in doing so, because he as a living god, have the 100% knowledge that they were evil, as reasonable. How can you convince someone who truely believed he was a living god?

Your assumptions are all fine until remove the fact that God knew their hearts. If you look at areas today where civil wars rage, extreme hunger exist and lawless is you will see that in general the population becomes much looser with morals and values. It's not beyond possibility that these people had done just that.

But these people are just like you or I, just so unlucky enough to be born in places where civil war rages etc. That is enough for me to conclude that those in Noah's time are also very much like us. What other than the Bible's assurance that the people drowned in the flood, actually deserved it?

You can't simply remove God and then ask "Now does this sound like it makes sense" which is in effect what you've done here.

I am doing the opposite, I am granting that God exists, is omnisense and omnipotent. It sure doesn't sound like it make any sense that an omnisense and omnipotent being would choose such not methods that are not only ineffective, but also involve much human suffering, for the purpose of freeing the Isrealis.

[southern cross]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

No He punishes the wicked. The older children actually could be held accountable for their actions since they were told about God and had a choice to believe and turn from their wicked ways. The infants were covered under God's grace because they were not old enough to be given the opportunity to choose. There was no punishment for them. They would be taken to Heaven.

So the gestapo killed for a human ruler. God killed because He passed His judgement on the world based on the rules that He created for all men. Comparison doesn't really work to well.

Oh there are so many cases charles, so many.......Let me see, I'll start at the beginning, how about that. The children being punished for the mistake of the parents. Right from the get go. At least he started how he intended to continue.

So God, who already had an example of humans choosing to disobey, should have just let any children come back? Also, who were these children who were in the garden? If none were there then guess what, they were not punished by being expelled. Interesting thing is, the discipline, believers receive discipline non believers receive punishment, is meant as a reminder to trust and listen to God.

Please don't stop me if you've heard this. Sin and suffering and death came into the world as a result of A&E's alleged mistake. Please twist this in a way that god isn't punishing they're descendants. Oh and did you hear about childbirth?
BTW when you're in heaven are you sure he won't set another trap, knowing full well that someone will fall for the trap and then use that as an excuse to kick you all out? He has form after all.

[The Nice Centurion]

Because admiting you are wrong is something that people who are racest or biasist can not do. It matters not if Jesus was writen as saying anything about homosexuality at all to me since he is not a person I turn to for moral attudes, anyone who excludes people for sexuality is not a moral person.

I'm glad you are standing up for it in the way you can. It is sad that it falls on deaf ears.

That means you think that anyone who despises Child Rape and therefore excludes Pedophilians for their sexuality is not a moral Person