Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[Ooberman]

If anyone had to be killed, the most obvious choice would be the Pharaoh himself.

He chased them even after God killed the first borns. What makes you think he would not go out and look for them if they just disappeared?

You just ignored the force of his argument.

Why didn't God just kill the Pharaoh, instead of untold hundreds or thousands of innocent children?

What kind of monster does that?


Should America have killed all first born children in Iraq instead of targeting Saddam?


It's amazing how Christians will defend the death of children.

[southern cross]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

[charles_hamm]

Your lack of belief in God is not relevant here. I do notice you left out the Egyptians and added the Midianites instead. Midianites seduced Israeli men into worshiping a false God. Canaanites were enemies of the Jews. You still haven't provided any proof.

Of course it's relevant. Facts are relevant.

The only fact you've shown is that you don't believe in God. That in no way means God doesn't exist and it certainly doe not remove God from the judgement of these peoples.

Since there is no God, Moses was doing all of this genocide under the pretense that it was Godly.

This is an assumption based on your beliefs and not on facts.

He was a genocidal maniac AND a liar.

Please provide evidence of these claims. Just so you understand, saying I don't believe in God is not evidence. That is only a belief and is not fact.

As for this statement:
"Midianites seduced Israeli men into worshiping a false God."

Oh! The horror! Oh no! I guess we should kill everyone who doesn't believe in Moses's God!

I guess you have no idea where that would lead. First they would worship false Gods then they would break the covenant with God. I think I'll let God take care of the non believers whenever that time comes. I'll just keep trying to tell them the truth until then.

That's an absurd comment. Maybe Moses was worshipping the wrong God and they were worshiping the right one? Ever think about that?

So are you admitting that there is a God? I'm confused. I thought you didn't believe in God. Do you believe in some Gods, but just not the God od Moses? Please explain because I see this alot from some atheist and it sure sounds like maybe these people do believe in a God.

Those poor Canaanites and Midianites. They are demonized in history for being victims - because their murderer told everyone they were evil.
I imagine this is what will happen with the Jews.

They were enemies of the Jews. That is not demonizing them. That is simply a fact. Their religious practices are documented in and out of the Bible so they are not demonized there either.

And the Jews destruction of other communities is well documented in the Bible and out. The Jew were a brutal race during Moses - it's why they succeeded. They were more violent and killed all the competititon.

So you use the Bible to document their alleged brutality, but you then say I don't believe in the God who divinely inspired it. That seems a little strange to me. Is it the work of God or not? If not then why do you believe the accuracy of anything it says? If so then why don't you believe?

It wasn't because they were blessed by God. They just said that.

So now you are just calling them liars. That would work on so many different documents throughtout history. Pretty much anything that doesn't have video of the event happening.

Samson pulled down the columns of the temple while there were women and children inside, because he believed it was for God - like a suicide bomber.

Samson was captured by his enemies, the Philistines and placed in a Gaza prison. He was humiliated by gouging out his eyes. During a Philistine ceremony he was paraded into the temple where he pulled down the columns killing his enemies. How is this like a suicide bomber?

He was captured because he had killed so many of them. That they spared his life was a generous gesture on their part.

He flies into a rage and kills thirty Philistines of Ashkelon for their garments, which he gives his thirty groomsmen.[9][10][6] Still in a rage, he returns to his father's house and finds out that his bride has been given to another man as wife.[9][10][6] Her father refuses to allow him to see her and wishes to give Samson the younger sister.[10][6] Samson attaches torches to the tails of three hundred foxes, leaving the panicked beasts to run through the fields of the Philistines, burning all in their wake.[9][10][6] The Philistines find out why Samson burned their crops and they burn Samson's wife and father-in-law to death.[11][10][6] In revenge, Samson slaughters many more Philistines, smiting them "hip and thigh".[10][6]


Samson then takes refuge in a cave in the rock of Etam.[10][6][12] An army of Philistines goes up and demands that 3000 men of Judah deliver them Samson.[6][12] With Samson's consent, they tie him with two new ropes and are about to hand him over to the Philistines when he breaks free.[11][12] Using the jawbone of an ass, he slays one thousand Philistines.[13][11][12] At the conclusion of Judges 15 it is said that "Samson led Israel for twenty years in the days of the Philistines".[12]

He was a monster. He was a monster for 20 years, terrorizing the land. And he was a monster to the end.

Oh, and Jesus is worst of all. He promises to come back and kill everyone.

Read the entire context and you will see that they threatened his wife and made her do their bidding because they could figure out his riddle. Samson knew they did this so to fill his promise to give them 30 garments. His groomsmen were Philistines. His wifes father denies him his wife and has her married to another man while still married to Samson. I would say his wrath is just here. The Philistines then burn and KILL samsons wife and father-in-law and he exacts revenge for their deaths. The Philistines then try to arrest him for killing these men but do nothing to the men who murdered Samson's wife. Then he kills all of the Philistines. That really sounds like a monster to me. He kills liars and thieves. He kills murders.

Actually he promises to take all those who believe in him to Heaven. I believe that even after the tribulation God offers mankind another chance to be saved and those that refuse are sent to Hell.

Lot's of people believe a lot of things.

Yep. Some even believe there is no God.[/quote]

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek" with your God?

He turned it. The people who were killed kept doing the same things until God finally did not turn the other cheek.

Either way, your support for the actions of this man is expected. I find conservative Christians often love the blood and killing of the the OT.

It translates into their idea of foreign policy "kill them all and let God sort them out". It always seems Christians are all for killing everyone, even for more minor offenses.

Because their god likes it that way. Their blood-lusting god.

So are you saying you don't believe in defending people who are oppressed? I like it more when people such as Pharaoh listen and take the chance they are given. If God was a blood-lusting God then why hasn't He killed all of the non believers in this day and age? Maybe He's turning the other cheek for awhile.

[charles_hamm]

If anyone had to be killed, the most obvious choice would be the Pharaoh himself.

He chased them even after God killed the first borns. What makes you think he would not go out and look for them if they just disappeared?

You just ignored the force of his argument.

His argument presumes that I know both God's mind and could accurately predict the future had Pharaoh lived. I do not know God's mind and can't tell you how many more evils Pharaoh would have done. His argument had no force because of these facts.

Why didn't God just kill the Pharaoh, instead of untold hundreds or thousands of innocent children?

See above.

What kind of monster does that?

You mean the same God who gave the people of Egypt chance after chance after chance to let the Jews free? That God?

Should America have killed all first born children in Iraq instead of targeting Saddam?

So you're asking should humans, who have no idea what the future holds for anyone, kill all the first born in Iraq versus should an all knowing God take the same action in Egypt. There's no comparison here. We as humans are not qualified to make a decision like that.

It's amazing how Christians will defend the death of children.

You mean the same Christians who stand up and shout at the top of their lungs that abortion is wrong? Those guys you say. I believe you have this idea backwards. Christians defend children to the fullest they can, including those that haven't even been born yet.

[Ooberman]

So are you saying you don't believe in defending people who are oppressed? I like it more when people such as Pharaoh listen and take the chance they are given. If God was a blood-lusting God then why hasn't He killed all of the non believers in this day and age? Maybe He's turning the other cheek for awhile.

Because God doesn't exist. Yet, some crazy theists will set off a nuke and claim God commanded it.

Obviously, since they killed their enemy, their God is the right one...

Which religion, do you think, is most likely to do that? I don't know, but I think Islam and Christianity are the leading ones.

It fits into their ad hoc reasoning for massacres.

[charles_hamm]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

No He punishes the wicked. The older children actually could be held accountable for their actions since they were told about God and had a choice to believe and turn from their wicked ways. The infants were covered under God's grace because they were not old enough to be given the opportunity to choose. There was no punishment for them. They would be taken to Heaven.

So the gestapo killed for a human ruler. God killed because He passed His judgement on the world based on the rules that He created for all men. Comparison doesn't really work to well.

[Goat]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either. Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

Isn't it??? Would I be considered a murderer if I killed your kids because you wouldn't obey me?

I'm afraid your situation fails because you equate God to a human. This is not possible to do. You are asking if a flawed human kills my child is it murder. Yes it is.

So, you are making a special case for God. Sorry, But morality is morality, and ethics is ethics.. and making a special case for God is not reasonable or logical.

It is interesting that something that would be considered extremely wrong for a person to do is justified to the believer to be Ok for god to do, just because it is claimed God did iti.

[southern cross]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

No He punishes the wicked. The older children actually could be held accountable for their actions since they were told about God and had a choice to believe and turn from their wicked ways. The infants were covered under God's grace because they were not old enough to be given the opportunity to choose. There was no punishment for them. They would be taken to Heaven.

So the gestapo killed for a human ruler. God killed because He passed His judgement on the world based on the rules that He created for all men. Comparison doesn't really work to well.

Oh there are so many cases charles, so many.......Let me see, I'll start at the beginning, how about that. The children being punished for the mistake of the parents. Right from the get go. At least he started how he intended to continue.

[Ooberman]

Meanwhile, all of this can be explained that it's all a mythology. That it was just men and women trying to make sense of life, war, misery, death, etc.
None of these tales require a God to exist.

[charles_hamm]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either. Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

Isn't it??? Would I be considered a murderer if I killed your kids because you wouldn't obey me?

I'm afraid your situation fails because you equate God to a human. This is not possible to do. You are asking if a flawed human kills my child is it murder. Yes it is.

So, you are making a special case for God. Sorry, But morality is morality, and ethics is ethics.. and making a special case for God is not reasonable or logical.

It is interesting that something that would be considered extremely wrong for a person to do is justified to the believer to be Ok for god to do, just because it is claimed God did iti.

Your thought might work except for the fact that it would God who gave the very meaning of morality and ethics. So no a special case is not needed here. I would interested to see what you deem as moral and then what you deem as a suitable punishment, if you think one should be punished, for immoral behavior.

What's not reasonable or logical to is to justify the actions of these groups of people. You have to do that in order to say they did not deserve punishment. Any argument beyond that is simply a personal opinion on what level of punishment they deserve. So the question becomes, are you justifying the actions of the groups above?