Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[charles_hamm]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either. Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

[charles_hamm]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

Jesus also praises men like Moses and Samson, the Hitler and Suicide bombers of their day.

Please provide proof Moses was like Hitler and Samson was a suicide bomber or please retract your statement.

Well, let's look at Samson.. and let's look how the story had him die.

16:30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Isn't that exactly what the suicide bombers are doing, for what they think are 'reasons of righteousness'??

Not even close. Samson was a prisoner of the Philistines. He had been tortured (his eyes were gouged out) and was being paraded in front of the Philistines during one of their religious festivals. Suicide bombers are not prisoners of anyone. They inflict damage and death unprovoked (yes I know they feel they have reasons of righteousness). Samson killed his captures after they wounded him. He was provoked. Also please look at the fact he was blind. He could not have been sure what they were doing to him.

As for Moses and the Exodus.. well, look at all those innocent first Born that were killed because of Moses being in a snit...

Let's see. God gave Pharaoh multiple chances to release the Jewish slaves. Pharaoh refused. The death of the first born was not the first plague. It was the last. God did not just walk in and kill all the innocent first borns. They were killed because their Pharaoh refused to release his slaves. Moses only warned Pharaoh of what would happen if he didn't let them go.

Ah yes... excuses .. But.. as far as I can see, excuses are excuses.

Do you mean like the ones made for not believing in Christ or God?

I am sure the suicide bombers had excuses for their actions too.

I'm sure they had them. Moses and Samson didn't need them. They had valid reasons.

And killing innocents are killing innocents..

So all the people in the temple mocking Samson were innocent? The ones who blinded him were innocent? The Egyptians were innocent? I believe Pharaoh killed innocent Jewish male babies prior to God's judgement. I also believe Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when told to. Please explain how Moses killed anyone. He didn't have an army. He didn't even have weapons. He was only the messenger. So you first have to acknowledge God's existence to even make the killing of the first born in Egypt part of any discussion.

Excuses don't matter.

I agree. So then we can agree that the excuses made for why people may think Moses compares to Hitler and Samson to a suicide bomber don't matter.

[Bust Nak]

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either.

Well, I can think of prenty of things that I would do before enbarking on any plagues had I had a fraction of power God was supposed to have, that would involve far less suffering. Choosing less suffering, I would argue would be the compassionate thing to do.

Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

Would you accept that softening the Pharaoh's heart for example, would have involve much less suffering? The holy spirite was supposed to be able to do that. If that is a big no no with regard to free will, or doesn't sufficiently show off God's power, then I would simply send an army of angels to spirit all the slaves away, that's pretty showy.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

But from our own experience, we can see for ourselves that people in general aren't like cartoon villains without any redeeming qualities. Even if we take the Sodom story for granted, that the people there were to the last men, not just rapists but were sacrificing children, there is still a case to be made for sparing the women and children.

[Goat]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either. Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

Isn't it??? Would I be considered a murderer if I killed your kids because you wouldn't obey me?

[charles_hamm]

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either.

Well, I can think of prenty of things that I would do before enbarking on any plagues had I had a fraction of power God was supposed to have, that would involve far less suffering. Choosing less suffering, I would argue would be the compassionate thing to do.

He did. Moses told Pharaoh to release the slaves before a single plague happened. As a show of who He was He made Aaron's rod turn into a snake in front of Pharaoh.

Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

Would you accept that softening the Pharaoh's heart for example, would have involve much less suffering? The holy spirite was supposed to be able to do that. If that is a big no no with regard to free will, or doesn't sufficiently show off God's power, then I would simply send an army of angels to spirit all the slaves away, that's pretty showy.

The holy spirit was not sent to world until after Jesus' death. So you send the army and Pharaoh chases the Jews, as he did, then what? It still comes back to Pharaoh's choices.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

But from our own experience, we can see for ourselves that people in general aren't like cartoon villains without any redeeming qualities. Even if we take the Sodom story for granted, that the people there were to the last men, not just rapists but were sacrificing children, there is still a case to be made for sparing the women and children.

I'm not sure there is. It would be reasonable to say that the women and children had been taught by the men how to act. If so then we cannot assume that they were committing some of the same acts.

[charles_hamm]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

Fair enough. God's judgement was not murderous in Egypt because He killed the first born as a last resort to save other peoples lives. It definitely does matter that Pharaoh would not release the Jewish slaves when first presented with the chance. He didn't do it the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth times either. Also keep in mind Pharaoh himself committed infanticide to keep the number of Jews low enough so they could not rebel.

God wiped out an unbelieving world (save Noah and the Ark). I'm not sure how much more you can say about this. With Sodom they were considered to be evil.

Isn't it??? Would I be considered a murderer if I killed your kids because you wouldn't obey me?

I'm afraid your situation fails because you equate God to a human. This is not possible to do. You are asking if a flawed human kills my child is it murder. Yes it is.

[Bust Nak]

He did. Moses told Pharaoh to release the slaves before a single plague happened. As a show of who He was He made Aaron's rod turn into a snake in front of Pharaoh.

I would argue that my two solutions (remove Pharaoh's free will, or send angels) were more effective.

The holy spirit was not sent to world until after Jesus' death. So you send the army and Pharaoh chases the Jews, as he did, then what? It still comes back to Pharaoh's choices.

What exactly is there for the Pharaoh to chase when the slaves have simply disappeared? Had the Pharaoh know where the Jews are, there are still any number of ways of stopping the Pharaoh without killing any fish in the Nile, any of the soldier, let alone any first born.

If anyone had to be killed, the most obvious choice would be the Pharaoh himself.

I'm not sure there is. It would be reasonable to say that the women and children had been taught by the men how to act. If so then we cannot assume that they were committing some of the same acts.

Sure we can assume that the women and children are not evil, just look at the average people under the control of any near modern or modern despots. Any wrong committed is out of necessity to stay alive. The only plausible reply I've seen, is that slaying these people is actually a boon to them as a short cut to heaven.

[Ooberman]

deleted

[Ooberman]

Your lack of belief in God is not relevant here. I do notice you left out the Egyptians and added the Midianites instead. Midianites seduced Israeli men into worshiping a false God. Canaanites were enemies of the Jews. You still haven't provided any proof.

Of course it's relevant. Facts are relevant.

Since there is no God, Moses was doing all of this genocide under the pretense that it was Godly.

He was a genocidal maniac AND a liar.

As for this statement:
"Midianites seduced Israeli men into worshiping a false God."

Oh! The horror! Oh no! I guess we should kill everyone who doesn't believe in Moses's God!

That's an absurd comment. Maybe Moses was worshipping the wrong God and they were worshiping the right one? Ever think about that?

Those poor Canaanites and Midianites. They are demonized in history for being victims - because their murderer told everyone they were evil.
I imagine this is what will happen with the Jews.

They were enemies of the Jews. That is not demonizing them. That is simply a fact. Their religious practices are documented in and out of the Bible so they are not demonized there either.

And the Jews destruction of other communities is well documented in the Bible and out. The Jew were a brutal race during Moses - it's why they succeeded. They were more violent and killed all the competititon.

It wasn't because they were blessed by God. They just said that.

Samson pulled down the columns of the temple while there were women and children inside, because he believed it was for God - like a suicide bomber.

Samson was captured by his enemies, the Philistines and placed in a Gaza prison. He was humiliated by gouging out his eyes. During a Philistine ceremony he was paraded into the temple where he pulled down the columns killing his enemies. How is this like a suicide bomber?

He was captured because he had killed so many of them. That they spared his life was a generous gesture on their part.

He flies into a rage and kills thirty Philistines of Ashkelon for their garments, which he gives his thirty groomsmen.[9][10][6] Still in a rage, he returns to his father's house and finds out that his bride has been given to another man as wife.[9][10][6] Her father refuses to allow him to see her and wishes to give Samson the younger sister.[10][6] Samson attaches torches to the tails of three hundred foxes, leaving the panicked beasts to run through the fields of the Philistines, burning all in their wake.[9][10][6] The Philistines find out why Samson burned their crops and they burn Samson's wife and father-in-law to death.[11][10][6] In revenge, Samson slaughters many more Philistines, smiting them "hip and thigh".[10][6]


Samson then takes refuge in a cave in the rock of Etam.[10][6][12] An army of Philistines goes up and demands that 3000 men of Judah deliver them Samson.[6][12] With Samson's consent, they tie him with two new ropes and are about to hand him over to the Philistines when he breaks free.[11][12] Using the jawbone of an ass, he slays one thousand Philistines.[13][11][12] At the conclusion of Judges 15 it is said that "Samson led Israel for twenty years in the days of the Philistines".[12]

He was a monster. He was a monster for 20 years, terrorizing the land. And he was a monster to the end.

Oh, and Jesus is worst of all. He promises to come back and kill everyone.

Read the entire context and you will see that they threatened his wife and made her do their bidding because they could figure out his riddle. Samson knew they did this so to fill his promise to give them 30 garments. His groomsmen were Philistines. His wifes father denies him his wife and has her married to another man while still married to Samson. I would say his wrath is just here. The Philistines then burn and KILL samsons wife and father-in-law and he exacts revenge for their deaths. The Philistines then try to arrest him for killing these men but do nothing to the men who murdered Samson's wife. Then he kills all of the Philistines. That really sounds like a monster to me. He kills liars and thieves. He kills murders.

Actually he promises to take all those who believe in him to Heaven. I believe that even after the tribulation God offers mankind another chance to be saved and those that refuse are sent to Hell.

Lot's of people believe a lot of things.[/quote]

Yep. Some even believe there is no God.[/quote]


Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek" with your God?

Either way, your support for the actions of this man is expected. I find conservative Christians often love the blood and killing of the the OT.

It translates into their idea of foreign policy "kill them all and let God sort them out". It always seems Christians are all for killing everyone, even for more minor offenses.

Because their god likes it that way. Their blood-lusting god.

[charles_hamm]

He did. Moses told Pharaoh to release the slaves before a single plague happened. As a show of who He was He made Aaron's rod turn into a snake in front of Pharaoh.

I would argue that my two solutions (remove Pharaoh's free will, or send angels) were more effective.

Maybe, maybe not. If Pharaoh saw the Jews as a threat then what's to say he would not look for them and try to kill all of them.

The holy spirit was not sent to world until after Jesus' death. So you send the army and Pharaoh chases the Jews, as he did, then what? It still comes back to Pharaoh's choices.

What exactly is there for the Pharaoh to chase when the slaves have simply disappeared? Had the Pharaoh know where the Jews are, there are still any number of ways of stopping the Pharaoh without killing any fish in the Nile, any of the soldier, let alone any first born. If anyone had to be killed, the most obvious choice would be the Pharaoh himself.

He chased them even after God killed the first borns. What makes you think he would not go out and look for them if they just disappeared?

I'm not sure there is. It would be reasonable to say that the women and children had been taught by the men how to act. If so then we cannot assume that they were committing some of the same acts.

Sure we can assume that the women and children are not evil, just look at the average people under the control of any near modern or modern despots. Any wrong committed is out of necessity to stay alive. The only plausible reply I've seen, is that slaying these people is actually a boon to them as a short cut to heaven.

That's not true at all. You are now assuming that all these people did not want to do the wrongs they did. There's no possible way you can know this. We know that after people are freed and after these wrongs have been discovered people do say that had to do it to stay alive. You can look at the Germans who would say they had no idea a concentration camp was only half a mile down the road. It made no sense but they wanted nothing to do with what was found. During the actions, nobody knows how they felt.