Why are Jews persecuted?

To discuss Jewish topics and issues

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Divine Insight
Savant
Posts: 18080
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Here & Now

Post by Divine Insight »

[Replying to post 8 by jeager106]

I read the article and I don't see it as being anything but Jewish Paranoia.

I don't buy into the claim that the Jews have been hated anymore than many other groups of people through out history. I just don't buy into that claim.

I think it may appear that way to Judea-Christians because of the limited box through which they view the world. These people tend to be religiously arrogant and self-centric.

If you ask people outside of that group if they feel that the Jews are persecuted more than other people they will probably say no.

I think also that the Holocaust against the Jews conducted by Nazi Germany was really the single even in history that actually put the Jews on the persecution radar. And like I say, I think they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I mean think about it. You ask "Why" are Jews persecuted. Well, if you look at various different situations they have been in throughout history there are many different reasons why they were persecuted.

Also, do you believe that the Jew are currently being persecuted today? If so, by whom? And has it ever occurred to you that the people you might think are persecuting Jews today actually feel like they are being persecuted by the Jews?

I just don't buy into the claim that the Jews are the most persecuted group of people. There were many other large groups of people who have been persecuted throughout history. The Cathers, for example, were persecuted by the Christians to the point of extermination. Same thing can be said of the American Indians. And I'm sure there are many other examples throughout history as well. Pagan have been persecuted by religious people for eons.

I don't buy into the Jewish claim that they are being persecuted more than other people. Save for possibly the horrors of Nazi Germany. But that was a fluke created by a mad man named Hitler. Hardly the "world" persecuting Jews.

What about all the so-called "Witches" who were burned at the stake for over 300 years by Christian fanatics? The problem there is that you probably don't view those people as having been a legitimate "group".

But the Jews don't hold any special place as being persecuted. Many civilizations were persecuted to extinction. You can't get get worse than that. Look at the American Indians. They were persecuted to extinction in terms of their original culture. The few descendents that have survived have been "assimilated" into the culture that persecuted them.

This is no "Indian Nation" today.

Look at the nation of Israel. They even have nuclear capability! What are they complaining about?

Could it be that the reason you think the Jews were the most persecuted people on earth is because you are looking at the world through Judea-Christian-colored glasses?

What about the American Indians? Don't they COUNT? :-k
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

jeager106
Scholar
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:29 pm
Location: Ohio

Post by jeager106 »

No Indian Nation?
Really?
Nation to Nation: Treaties Between the United States and American Indian Nations
link: on e a whole lot of links to the native American Nations.

http://www.nmai.si.edu/explore/exhibitions/item/?id=934
Exploited, murdered, robbed? Yes, sad and shame on American history.
Today there are man Indian Nations that are weathly beyond my dreams.
I'm part Blackfoot. Have in interest in such things don'cha'know.


I don't buy into the claim that the Jews have been hated anymore than many other groups of people through out history. I just don't buy into that claim.


No more limited that any other victim or predjudice and violence.

Witches were individuals picked out by other dingbats as witches.
Nasty business but on a relatively small scale, still it's wrong.
I could go on but I'm bored with this senseless rambling.

User avatar
Willum
Under Probation
Posts: 8508
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: The formerly Great US of A

Historically-why are Jews persecuted-it's politics

Post by Willum »

Jewish people, whether in the Bible, or in credible recorded history have three elements that result in persecution:

1. They are conspicuous. Nothing wrong with that, something to be proud of really. I personally admire people who have that kind of pride. The thing about human nature, however, is that: To raise a standard is to have lesser men throw mud on it-or worse.

2. They have a belief in law that is irrational. Law at best, is just paper, it can protect you in civil societies, but in desperate times, war, depression, etc., hoping law will protect you is just foolish. Hoping God is going to enforce man-made contracts is also problematic.

3. Finally the elephant in the room: Israel (but NOT necessarily Jewish) in particular has a long history of building alliances with the world powers of the times: Egypt, Babylon, Rome, etc., and then pissing off it's neighbors (Syria, Sidon, Tyr, the Samaritans) relying on the powers to protect them. Eventually those great powers fall, or alliances change, and geographic-Israeli are devoured by the enemies they have made. Many times this results in war and slaughter.

I see Nazism as a disproportionate and unexpected corollary of this. What I understand is that Jewish people were associated with essentially a "Wall Street" takeover of the very depressed post WWI Germany. That's pretty benign, unless everyone in your country is poor and hopeless because of paying reparations from WWI. Because some of the leaders of this financial takeover attempt were Jewish, and called on that as a political rally, it caused a disproportionate back-lash in a depressed but not quite beaten Germany. I am pretty sure the financiers had no inkling that they would inspire a violent response, and it absolutely should not have.
There are other symptoms of this: The ridiculous scientific "master race," thing is an anti-parallel to Jewish religious "chosen people," Nazi's had their version of Zionism, so many beliefs twisted so that one system of beliefs could be better than another.

Back to 1. Those standards raised, and mud thrown on them, or worse.
This is a test: Had this been an actual revolution, the virus would have been much stronger.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

Who would be proud these tactics?

User avatar
cnorman19
Apprentice
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:56 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Contact:

Re: Historically-why are Jews persecuted-it's politics

Post by cnorman19 »

Willum wrote: Jewish people, whether in the Bible, or in credible recorded history have three elements that result in persecution:
I have problems with all three of your propositions.
1. They are conspicuous. Nothing wrong with that, something to be proud of really. I personally admire people who have that kind of pride. The thing about human nature, however, is that: To raise a standard is to have lesser men throw mud on it-or worse.
My wife tells me that the first lesson one learns as a child, if one is raised Jewish, is "Keep your head down." DON'T stand out. DON'T make a point of exhibiting your Jewishness. That's always been the case, anywhere other than Israel when Jews were in the majority. Why do you think so many other cultures throughout history have forced Jews to wear special clothing or badges? Why do you think Jews were forced to live separately, in isolated "shtetls" (rural villages restricted to Jews) and in ghettos, some with walls surrounding them and guarded, locked gates at night? If we were so "conspicuous," why would any of that have been necessary?
2. They have a belief in law that is irrational. Law at best, is just paper, it can protect you in civil societies, but in desperate times, war, depression, etc., hoping law will protect you is just foolish. Hoping God is going to enforce man-made contracts is also problematic.
"Law," for Jews, is not "protection." It is a guide to proper behavior. That's all.

Further -- to state the obvious -- Jewish law is just for Jews, not for the greater society. We have never attempted to outlaw pork, for instance. The idea that we ever hoped that "God would protect us" through the Law, or enforce man-made contracts (I'd like to see where THAT has ever been taught in Jewish tradition) is pretty far out there.
3. Finally the elephant in the room: Israel (but NOT necessarily Jewish) in particular has a long history of building alliances with the world powers of the times: Egypt, Babylon, Rome, etc., and then pissing off it's neighbors (Syria, Sidon, Tyr, the Samaritans) relying on the powers to protect them. Eventually those great powers fall, or alliances change, and geographic-Israeli are devoured by the enemies they have made. Many times this results in war and slaughter.
Um, for starters, there was no Israel from 70 CE until 1948. Pretty hard to have a "long history" of "alliances."

More to the point; our relationship in ancient times with Egypt, Babylon, Rome, etc. (not to mention the Assyrians and the Greeks) was one of conquered and conqueror, not "allies." When each of these empires fell, Israel was "devoured" as prey by the next conqueror in line, not because of rage that we were willing "allies" of the previous conqueror. Your formulation here defies both history AND logic.
I see Nazism as a disproportionate and unexpected corollary of this. What I understand is that Jewish people were associated with essentially a "Wall Street" takeover of the very depressed post WWI Germany. That's pretty benign, unless everyone in your country is poor and hopeless because of paying reparations from WWI. Because some of the leaders of this financial takeover attempt were Jewish, and called on that as a political rally, it caused a disproportionate back-lash in a depressed but not quite beaten Germany. I am pretty sure the financiers had no inkling that they would inspire a violent response, and it absolutely should not have.
It would be nice if you could prove the truth of the Nazis' claims that "Jews took over the German economy," "Jews caused the First War," and so on. Those were always myths and canards. They still are, in the present day as well as in spurious historical analyses like yours. If you want to argue that Jews were "associated with" any alleged economic "takeover," it would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that such allegations were generally, to put it simply, LIES.
There are other symptoms of this: The ridiculous scientific "master race," thing is an anti-parallel to Jewish religious "chosen people," Nazi's had their version of Zionism, so many beliefs twisted so that one system of beliefs could be better than another.
That betrays a very common misunderstanding of the concept of "Chosen People." We don't even use that term much any more, because it IS so widely misunderstood and is the basis of so much hatred and vitriol. "Chosen People" meant "chosen for an arduous task," not "chosen for special love and privilege." An old Jewish joke illustrates this; "Why doesn't God choose someone ELSE once in a while?"

All this is just another effort, though a relatively tepid one, to blame antisemitism on the Jews.
Back to 1. Those standards raised, and mud thrown on them, or worse.
Here's another theory; Jews were "chosen" as convenient scapegoats because of their small numbers, their relative powerlessness (Jews in Europe were generally poor, not rich bankers), their different traditions and practices, and the endemic hatred that had existed since the rise of Christianity and the fall of Rome; then they were isolated in ghettos and shtetls, forced to wear distinctive clothing and badges, and attacked whenever it was politically convenient for the actual ruling powers in whatever country we're discussing.

Consider the Menahem Mendel Beilis trial in Kiev in 1913; engineered and carried out by the Czarist courts as a prelude to a massive pogrom. Unfortunately, that effort failed because the "witnesses" were so obviously fraudulent that they couldn't even fool a handpicked jury of ignorant, antisemitic Russian peasants. The charge against Beilis itself, of course, was based on one of the most ancient myths and canards of all -- that of the Blood Libel, the claim that we Jews routinely murder Gentile children and eat their blood in our Passover matzohs as a religious ritual. This scurrilous lie was all but universally believed among Gentiles throughout the Middle Ages, and is still so believed even into the present day by many Russian Orthodox (there are such claims on this very forum) and virtually all Muslims in the Mideast. It is promoted, and has been dramatized as fact, on nationally-sponsored TV and radio networks throughout the Mideast. That didn't come from us, or from any legitimate complaints that anyone may claim to have against Jews or Israel.

Blaming the victim is always comforting and convenient for those who have no skin in the game. It's also almost invariably WRONG.
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened." -- Rabbi William Gershon

"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry; but why on Earth should that mean that it is not real?" -- Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows; J. K. Rowling

"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God -- but to create him." -- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
Willum
Under Probation
Posts: 8508
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: The formerly Great US of A

Re: Historically-why are Jews persecuted-it's politics

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 13 by cnorman19]
Ah, so an anecdote from your wife, who would probably claim to be Jewish within seven minutes of meeting her in a social setting, overwhelms all the yamakas you see.

That's just one, and all the things you say re-enforce what I said in sharp relief.

Do you really think that by claiming differently you change the what is? That falls right in with the phenomenon of written words protecting you from the barbarity of man.

"You can't steal because it's written in the 10 Commandments! If you do you'll be wrong!"

How IS that working out for us? :~)

User avatar
cnorman19
Apprentice
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:56 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Contact:

Re: Historically-why are Jews persecuted-it's politics

Post by cnorman19 »

[Replying to post 14 by Willum]

I don't see that you've made a single argument to rebut any of the FACTS that I've posted. None at all. On the contrary, you just took an unprovoked and gratuitous personal shot at my wife, claimed that I'm wrong and you're right without giving ANY reasons for that claim, and nothing more.

Do you think all Jews wear yarmulkes? Do you think we always did? Are you really THAT uninformed about Judaism and Jews?

Is this really the best you've got?
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened." -- Rabbi William Gershon

"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry; but why on Earth should that mean that it is not real?" -- Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows; J. K. Rowling

"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God -- but to create him." -- Arthur C. Clarke

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 17339
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Post by otseng »

Willum wrote: Ah, so an anecdote from your wife, who would probably claim to be Jewish within seven minutes of meeting her in a social setting, overwhelms all the yamakas you see.
Moderator Comment

Please avoid making assumptions about others.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

User avatar
FinalEnigma
Site Supporter
Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:37 am
Location: Bryant, AR

Post by FinalEnigma »

There are multiple reasons why Jews have been persecuted throughout history. Among the more prominent are:

1) Jews are a minority pretty much everywhere except Israel. Minorities are mistreated pretty much everyone.

2) Jews do not assimilate very well. It's basically part of our religion to avoid over-assimilation into countries we inhabit. Most people and countries do not like foreigners who do not assimilate.

3) Christians blame Jews for the death of Jesus, and some of them have hated Jews for it. Christianity is very widespread, and there are a lot of places where a small number of Jews live in an area that is predominantly Christian.


Aside, one poster claimed that most people would not think that Jews are persecuted more than other groups.

This isn't precisely persecution, but I've done some math.
Did you know that according to FBI hate crime statistics, a Jew in America is more likely to be targeted for a hate crime for being a Jew than a bi-racial African-american/hispanic Muslim lesbian is for all of those attributes combined? (the only group that's even close to as frequently targeted is gay men, which is at about the same chance as Jews)
The year after 9/11, Jews were approximately three times more likely to be victims of hate crimes than Muslims.
We do not hate others because of the flaws in their souls, we hate them because of the flaws in our own.

Wissing
Apprentice
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Post by Wissing »

[Replying to post 17 by FinalEnigma]

I'll dip my toes in the water here. I'm going to take a slightly different angle on the matter. If I were peoples of the world, what might provoke me to despise the Jews?

They're holy and it's not fair
The Jews are God's chosen people. They are given land and prosperity, even though they don't deserve it [1]. Much like the prodigal son [2], the Jews are given their father's favor, not because of any righteousness, but in spite of their transgressions. Much like the other son in that parable, other peoples claim foul play.

They told people they're wrong
The Jews tell others they are wicked (the surrounding nations are considered wicked, and God uses the Jews to attack them for it)[1]. Throughout the years, their prophets proclaimed destruction on all the neighboring peoples [5,6]. Nobody wants to be told they're wrong. Even if I am wrong, I will still often get defensive if somebody tells me I'm wrong. This usually entails slanty eyebrows and something to the effect of "how dare you criticize me, when you do x y and z sin!" This culture of judging other nations persisted for centuries; certainly a reactionary anti-Semitic culture could have also persisted for centuries, even up to modern times.

They gave physical form to the wrath of God
In the early days, God refined humanity by war. He used physical, violent means to refine his creation. The Jewish people were often his instrument in doing this. The Jews brutally attacked many peoples to secure their lands [3]. Sometimes they did not leave survivors. Other times, against orders, they spared a few (I think this happened with King Saul). Those survivors would have probably had a grudge, for the loss of all their friends and family, and everything they ever knew. Certainly, the neighboring peoples would have despised potential assailants [4]. The Jews probably made a lot of enemies early in the existence of Israel; many of those may have persisted in neighboring cultures. There were probably entire families, communities, and even small nations that were raised anti-Jew from day 1. Those attitudes could easily have persisted down through the ages.


[1] Deuteronomy 9:1-6
[2] Luke 15:11-32
[3] Numbers 21:32-35
[4] Numbers 22:1-6
[5] Jeremiah 46-51
[6] Isaiah 23

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by Goat »

Wissing wrote: [Replying to post 17 by FinalEnigma]

I'll dip my toes in the water here. I'm going to take a slightly different angle on the matter. If I were peoples of the world, what might provoke me to despise the Jews?

They're holy and it's not fair
The Jews are God's chosen people. They are given land and prosperity, even though they don't deserve it [1]. Much like the prodigal son [2], the Jews are given their father's favor, not because of any righteousness, but in spite of their transgressions. Much like the other son in that parable, other peoples claim foul play.
And, this is a misunderstanding of what is meant by 'chosen'. It is 'chosen for special responsibility' to attempt to provide a good role model for other, not for special privileges.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Post Reply