I've seen Ray Comfort claim on numerous occasions, each with that beatific little grin, that "If someone tried to attack my family, I'd shoot that person in the arm or leg and work me way towards the center!"
Not every Christian owns a gun (I don't think).
Not every gun-owner is a Christian.
I grant those, but would you grant me that Evangelical or Conservative Christians do tend to be gun owners at a statistically significant rate?
The very notion, though, of uber-religious, Bible-literalist Christians even contemplating using a weapon while happily telling you "If you look at a woman with lust, you've already sinned."
I maintain that no one in the history of firearms has EVER owned a gun of any kind and NOT thought about using it or having to use it on a human being.
I see Olivia Wilde's perfect backside in that alien-cowboy movie and I've committed adultery.
But if someone purchases a gun and thinks about using it on someone, how are they not a murderer?
Jesus SAYS "If a man asks for your coat, give him your coat and your shirt" but some homeless person wanders up to you and your family and its ok to let him know you're packing? Why is it ok, in Christian Theology, to BE packing in the first place?
Why are guns and Christianity so cozy?
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The Tanager
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Post #2
Yes, there are many Christians who do not own a gun (myself included). Whole denominations of Christians are pacifist (myself not included).lamar1234 wrote:Not every Christian owns a gun (I don't think).
I'm not sure how it pans out for evangelicals or conservatives.lamar1234 wrote:I grant those, but would you grant me that Evangelical or Conservative Christians do tend to be gun owners at a statistically significant rate?
The difference, for some, I think would be that they aren't thinking of murdering someone, but of acting in self-defense or the defense of another innocent victim. So, these Christians would not be looking at the imagined person out of hate and may even feel very scared about having to do such a thing, while still thinking that if the time came that it would be their moral duty to protect the innocent through the use of a gun or whatever.lamar1234 wrote:The very notion, though, of uber-religious, Bible-literalist Christians even contemplating using a weapon while happily telling you "If you look at a woman with lust, you've already sinned."
I maintain that no one in the history of firearms has EVER owned a gun of any kind and NOT thought about using it or having to use it on a human being.
I see Olivia Wilde's perfect backside in that alien-cowboy movie and I've committed adultery.
But if someone purchases a gun and thinks about using it on someone, how are they not a murderer?
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bluethread
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Post #3
You seem to be conflating three different issues. If one gets married, it is presumed that person will have sex, but it can not be presumed that person plans to commit adultery. If one sees a gun, he does not own and contemplates "using" it, he has engaged in theft in his heart. If someone rents a hotel room, it can not be presumed that He is thinking of adultery or murder, though motel rooms are many times used for those purposes.
Re: Why are guns and Christianity so cozy?
Post #4[Replying to post 1 by lamar1234]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is- ... story.html
This link is on the first page of a google search using the terms 'evangelical christians and guns'. Catholics and evangelical Christians seem to be in opposition, and mainline Protestant Christians regardless of ethnicity are somewhere in between. From this, it appears that when Christians have guns and a lot of energy to resist any kind of gun control, they would be white evangelical Christians, not all Christians.
Snipped from the above linked article, these were the rationalizations defended by conservative Christians;
The Second Amendment is approved by God. This, at least, appears to be the argument on the home page of the Christian Gun Owner Web site. It goes like this: The authors of the Constitution were acting under the guidance of God, therefore the Constitution is itself inspired by God.
Only prayer can conquer gun violence. This is Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s view. Evil is the source of violence in America, not guns.
Don’t blame guns, blame a corrupt society. In this version, conservative Christians blame increasing gun violence on what they call “secular values,� which is to say the legalization of abortion, the growth of single-parent families, same-sex marriage and so on.
Curbing gun ownership is the gateway to curbing other rights. “There’s a suspicion of a too-powerful state,� Russell Moore, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, told me. “Sometimes one will hear that if the government has too much power over guns, it will also have too much power over freedom of speech, freedom of religion.�
Self-defense and love (and defense) of neighbor are biblical values. This is how former Southern Baptist Convention official Richard Land, in an interview on National Public Radio in December, defended his support of arming teachers.
When I lived in North Idaho, I was immersed in this 'culture'. It's real.
And it is soooo American. My personal impression is these folks are gun[strike] freaks[/strike] owners FIRST. It's clear the rationales given above are inserted after the fact, similar to presuppositionalists cramming known facts into Biblical doctrine, which must come first. Guns must come first, and Jesus is incidental.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is- ... story.html
This link is on the first page of a google search using the terms 'evangelical christians and guns'. Catholics and evangelical Christians seem to be in opposition, and mainline Protestant Christians regardless of ethnicity are somewhere in between. From this, it appears that when Christians have guns and a lot of energy to resist any kind of gun control, they would be white evangelical Christians, not all Christians.
Snipped from the above linked article, these were the rationalizations defended by conservative Christians;
The Second Amendment is approved by God. This, at least, appears to be the argument on the home page of the Christian Gun Owner Web site. It goes like this: The authors of the Constitution were acting under the guidance of God, therefore the Constitution is itself inspired by God.
Only prayer can conquer gun violence. This is Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s view. Evil is the source of violence in America, not guns.
Don’t blame guns, blame a corrupt society. In this version, conservative Christians blame increasing gun violence on what they call “secular values,� which is to say the legalization of abortion, the growth of single-parent families, same-sex marriage and so on.
Curbing gun ownership is the gateway to curbing other rights. “There’s a suspicion of a too-powerful state,� Russell Moore, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, told me. “Sometimes one will hear that if the government has too much power over guns, it will also have too much power over freedom of speech, freedom of religion.�
Self-defense and love (and defense) of neighbor are biblical values. This is how former Southern Baptist Convention official Richard Land, in an interview on National Public Radio in December, defended his support of arming teachers.
When I lived in North Idaho, I was immersed in this 'culture'. It's real.
And it is soooo American. My personal impression is these folks are gun[strike] freaks[/strike] owners FIRST. It's clear the rationales given above are inserted after the fact, similar to presuppositionalists cramming known facts into Biblical doctrine, which must come first. Guns must come first, and Jesus is incidental.
Post #5
[Replying to post 2 by The Tanager]
What a thoughtful response, thank you!
It's just so very hard to square "using a gun to protect my family" and things Jesus is supposed to have taught. He never responded to violence or potential violence with his own violence.
He says anyone who loves their family loves not me.
He for sure would seem to be on the side of "If a man breaks into your house for your TV, give him your Xbox, too!"
I have to come back to the 'kill them with kindness' approach with the cloak and shirt thing, as well.
What a thoughtful response, thank you!
It's just so very hard to square "using a gun to protect my family" and things Jesus is supposed to have taught. He never responded to violence or potential violence with his own violence.
He says anyone who loves their family loves not me.
He for sure would seem to be on the side of "If a man breaks into your house for your TV, give him your Xbox, too!"
I have to come back to the 'kill them with kindness' approach with the cloak and shirt thing, as well.
Re: Why are guns and Christianity so cozy?
Post #6[Replying to post 4 by Hamsaka]
If you're ok with putting wicked things afore your eyes, then go YT Jim Jeffries Gun Control.
He makes so many good points in ways that are so pointed and humorous.
I think I believe him when he asserts "Look, there is one reason and one reason alone for owning a gun and it goes like this 'F off, I LIKE guns!'"
He immediately allows "It's not the BEST argument, but it's all you've got!"
He talks about including this section in his 'Bare,' show has prompted people to storm up to him strongly stating "You CANNOT change the 2nd Amendment!"
His response "Yes you can! It's called an 'Amendment.' If you don't think you can change something called an Amendment, then you need a Thesaurus more than a Constitution!"
If you're ok with putting wicked things afore your eyes, then go YT Jim Jeffries Gun Control.
He makes so many good points in ways that are so pointed and humorous.
I think I believe him when he asserts "Look, there is one reason and one reason alone for owning a gun and it goes like this 'F off, I LIKE guns!'"
He immediately allows "It's not the BEST argument, but it's all you've got!"
He talks about including this section in his 'Bare,' show has prompted people to storm up to him strongly stating "You CANNOT change the 2nd Amendment!"
His response "Yes you can! It's called an 'Amendment.' If you don't think you can change something called an Amendment, then you need a Thesaurus more than a Constitution!"
Re: Why are guns and Christianity so cozy?
Post #7[Replying to post 4 by Hamsaka]
As to the curtailing other rights after curtailing gun rights, again, I go to the sage Jim Jeffries.
"The 2nd Amendment was written so if the Government became a bunch of.....well, just a bunch ofs, you could get your guns and fight the Government! That was all well and good when everyone had muskets. The U.S. Government has DRONES now, you know that right? You're bringing a gun to a drone fight!"
Jim Jeffries is an Aussie and actually taught me something; by deaths Australia still has the largest number of victims of a single-shooter rampage in Darwin.
Jim said the Aussie government, after Darwin, said 'No more guns!' In the 10 years prior to Darwin shooting rampages, though none to the level of Darwin, were a fairly frequent occurrence. In the 12 years since Darwin, not a single shooting rampage.
Jim then opined "Now, I don't know why or how this happened, maybe it's just a coincidence.
As to the curtailing other rights after curtailing gun rights, again, I go to the sage Jim Jeffries.
"The 2nd Amendment was written so if the Government became a bunch of.....well, just a bunch ofs, you could get your guns and fight the Government! That was all well and good when everyone had muskets. The U.S. Government has DRONES now, you know that right? You're bringing a gun to a drone fight!"
Jim Jeffries is an Aussie and actually taught me something; by deaths Australia still has the largest number of victims of a single-shooter rampage in Darwin.
Jim said the Aussie government, after Darwin, said 'No more guns!' In the 10 years prior to Darwin shooting rampages, though none to the level of Darwin, were a fairly frequent occurrence. In the 12 years since Darwin, not a single shooting rampage.
Jim then opined "Now, I don't know why or how this happened, maybe it's just a coincidence.
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The Tanager
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Post #8
It is a danger, however, to extrapolate very specific events and try to fit them with every possible scenario. Jesus was not faced with something like a Hitler Germany, for example. In most things I'm a pacifist, but I feel someone like Hitler needed to be stopped and he just wasn't going to be stopped with kindness.lamar1234 wrote: [Replying to post 2 by The Tanager]
What a thoughtful response, thank you!
It's just so very hard to square "using a gun to protect my family" and things Jesus is supposed to have taught. He never responded to violence or potential violence with his own violence.
He says anyone who loves their family loves not me.
He for sure would seem to be on the side of "If a man breaks into your house for your TV, give him your Xbox, too!"
I have to come back to the 'kill them with kindness' approach with the cloak and shirt thing, as well.
Post #9
I wonder if there's a geographical connection influencing more than religions. The catholic communities up north and in the east coast aren't known for their love of firearms.
Back when I was a Christian in KY I was very very pro gun. Now as an atheist in KY I am very very pro gun
I'm a lot less concerned with the politics now. As a Christian I was always trying to justify gun rights for myself and others. As an atheist I have stopped considering myself to need permission from God(or society). It's made packing and shooting a lot more fulfilling, as it has in most other areas of life.
Back when I was a Christian in KY I was very very pro gun. Now as an atheist in KY I am very very pro gun
I'm a lot less concerned with the politics now. As a Christian I was always trying to justify gun rights for myself and others. As an atheist I have stopped considering myself to need permission from God(or society). It's made packing and shooting a lot more fulfilling, as it has in most other areas of life.
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lefillegal
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Re: Why are guns and Christianity so cozy?
Post #10[Replying to post 1 by lamar1234]
To end all confusion Jesus said "live by the sword die by the sword" concerning the protection of ones self. In any event, sword can be replaced with gun. So lets paraphrase, live by violence, die by violence, to paraphrase even further, the same tools you use to survive, will be the same tools used to destroy you. I rely on Christ. I fear not those who can destroy the flesh. I live by Christ, so I'll die by Christ. As for owning a gun, do I not own a gate? Can't my gate act as an tool to deter a thief? Can my gun act as a tool to deter a criminal? The same way stoning someone publicly, was to be used as a deterrent. Although it also served a function(returning the culprit to the father), its main purpose was to be used as a deterrent, not to just kill or punish people as believed. The same applies to today's deterrents. Yes today's tools( a gun) can definitely be used for violence, but they can also be used as a deterrent. That leaves any Christian with the right to determine which deterrent to use, and also when and how to use that deterrent if needed. A stone can be used as a tool or weapon, Christian gun owners choose to use the tools available correctly. In this case, the guns function is a deterrent and not a function of violence.
To end all confusion Jesus said "live by the sword die by the sword" concerning the protection of ones self. In any event, sword can be replaced with gun. So lets paraphrase, live by violence, die by violence, to paraphrase even further, the same tools you use to survive, will be the same tools used to destroy you. I rely on Christ. I fear not those who can destroy the flesh. I live by Christ, so I'll die by Christ. As for owning a gun, do I not own a gate? Can't my gate act as an tool to deter a thief? Can my gun act as a tool to deter a criminal? The same way stoning someone publicly, was to be used as a deterrent. Although it also served a function(returning the culprit to the father), its main purpose was to be used as a deterrent, not to just kill or punish people as believed. The same applies to today's deterrents. Yes today's tools( a gun) can definitely be used for violence, but they can also be used as a deterrent. That leaves any Christian with the right to determine which deterrent to use, and also when and how to use that deterrent if needed. A stone can be used as a tool or weapon, Christian gun owners choose to use the tools available correctly. In this case, the guns function is a deterrent and not a function of violence.
