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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:30 pm
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Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:56 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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[Replying to post 1 by Jolly_Penguin]



Quote:
It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.


Well , I can speak for Christianity, but not really other religions, except for how their books mimic the bible.

The bible of my religion , is anythng but "primitive " or "limited". The bible is still relevant in helping many through their trials and tribulations , even to this day , with verses written thousands of years ago , that match the issues of today , to help others through them. The words in this book are so powerful they have put their relevancy in perpetual motion for thousands of years . And more than likely thousands of years to come from now.

The bible does not mislead ,it presents a message , you either accept it or you do not. Should you accept the word of the Christian bible , it is a guide to help you understand and ,maintain and increase your faith.

The Christian religion is based in faith , should God reveal himself , there would be no need for faith.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:17 pm
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It is primitive and limited compared to what God could do. Human language and written word are subject to all sorts of error, as is evidenced by competing interpretations of your bible. That people disagree on what the bible means, what is literal and what is figurative, etc, is proof that it has misled at least some people, if not everyone.

God, if he is all powerful, has the power to make you know what he wants you to know without the use of any such limited tool such as ink on paper or any other tool. He can just make you know. Just like that. That he doesn't do this is telling. A written book is what we would expect to see of humans who are limited trying to get out a message purportedly speaking for a God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:50 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.


Yes.

I say this because it is not logical for a god to have book be written with a message for everyone, yet then require pastors and theologians to then interpret this message for everyone.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:57 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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[Replying to post 4 by Clownboat]

This I think is what the Greeks got right lol. The gods didn't really care whether we got the message right or if at all. I am not even sure they believed the gods had a message. Just that they existed and interacted with humanity in some shape form or fashion.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:22 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know.


I know of only one holy book that claims a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants us to know, the Bible. Please reference the others for me, eh?

Quote:
But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us...


The growth of faith is an organic process, slowly building up bit by bit as evidence mounts. A book is a perfect method for contemplation and repeated readings as faith grows. The point which you miss is that the message is not the important part but faith in the messenger. If you have faith in Christ the message becomes clear. If you scorn faith in Him by a steadfast rejection of Him then the message is muddled NO MATTER HOW IT IS PRESENTED TO YOU (generic you): Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; that is, your own interpretation of the message.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:01 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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ttruscott wrote:
The point which you miss is that the message is not the important part but faith in the messenger. If you have faith in Christ the message becomes clear.


Only it obviously doesn't do that for everybody, or we would not have so many competing interpretations and conflicting sects of the religion.

If God wanted everybody to know him and know what he wants, we would all know him and know what he wants. To say otherwise would be to question him being all powerful. That he hasn't done this means either that he doesn't exist, isn't all powerful, or doesn't intend us all to know a message from him.

The Bible is exactly what we would expect from a bunch of people pretending to speak for God or thinking they are speaking for God. It isn't what we would expect from an actual God. An actual God wouldn't need it. Unless of course he put it there as a gag for his amusement.


Last edited by Jolly_Penguin on Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:43 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

ttruscott wrote:
The point which you miss is that the message is not the important part but faith in the messenger. If you have faith in Christ the message becomes clear.


Only it obviously doesn't do that for everybody, or we would not have so many competing interpretations and conflicting sects of the religion.

If God wanted everybody to know him and know what he wants, we would all know him and know what he wants.


Everybody? If?
Of course we would but you forget: Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. which tells us that far from wanting everybody to know HIM, (those HE calls hear HIS voice), HIS sinful elect on earth are very few in number...popular Christianity is NOT the Church HE is redeeming and sanctifying.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:48 am
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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ttruscott wrote:

Jolly_Penguin wrote:

ttruscott wrote:
The point which you miss is that the message is not the important part but faith in the messenger. If you have faith in Christ the message becomes clear.


Only it obviously doesn't do that for everybody, or we would not have so many competing interpretations and conflicting sects of the religion.

If God wanted everybody to know him and know what he wants, we would all know him and know what he wants.


Everybody? If?
Of course we would but you forget: Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. which tells us that far from wanting everybody to know HIM, (those HE calls hear HIS voice), HIS sinful elect on earth are very few in number...popular Christianity is NOT the Church HE is redeeming and sanctifying.


So your position is that God only wants a few of us to understand and know him, and wants the rest of us to be confused or misled and fight between rival religions, and be damned for it, even though he made it so? He didn't intend his word and Jesus to be for all, but only for the elect few that he has decided in advance will decipher it correctly?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:58 pm
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Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims

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Jolly_Penguin wrote:


...
So your position is that God only wants a few of us to understand and know him, and wants the rest of us to be confused or misled and fight between rival religions, and be damned for it, even though he made it so? He didn't intend his word and Jesus to be for all, but only for the elect few that he has decided in advance will decipher it correctly?


Gee it sounds pretty bad when you put it that way eh? But that is not what I teach at all, missed my position by quite a bit actually, putting your thoughts and assumptions onto my words.

By their free will some have destroyed their capacity to understand spiritual things. GOD did not make this happen by anything within their creation...it all happened because they chose by their free will that which they knew might cause it to happen (rejecting HIM and so becoming evil in HIS sight), but thought that it was better to put their faith for eternal happiness into rejecting HIM as a false god and HIS promise of salvation as lies.

Some sinners HE can work with and bring them back to faith in HIS reality but others chose by their free will to be outside of HIS reality forever and cannot be brought back in by anything.

As for deciphering HIS message correctly, I will remind you that the message is not the point - one must first find GOD and then accept what they are told is the truth of the message, since we are saved by faith, not understanding the message. A downs kid, full of faith with no understanding, has a lot to teach many of the supposed erudite 'religious' scholars of the world.

I will also remind that theology is a complicated and lengthy endeavour and the fact that one can see a hole in an argument does not mean we get to kick him around for trying to float a leaky boat because it may just mean that in the effort to stay focused and brief, some things were left to discuss later if anyone cared to ask about it...it is better to ask about a supposed hole than to stick a finger into it and get it caught.

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