Why does Jesus die so quickly on the cross?

[Daddieslittlehelper]

Some people argue that Jesus was not on the cross long enought to actually have died as it takes days to die from cruxifiction.

Yet actually if you listen to what Jesus says: He says

John 10.17 The Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.

And interestingly on the cross Jesus says just before he dies
John 19.30 Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

So it appears It was not the cross that killed Jesus actually he had the power to give up his life when ever he wanted to, and also take his life back up again also.

This certainly could explain why Jesus dies so quickly on the cross. As he could give up his spirit whenever he wanted to.

And it's interesting some say that Jesus says "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" To referrence the suffering servant but actually he is starting to sing the 22 psalm

1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?

2My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don't answer; in the night season, and am not silent.

3But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.

4Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.

5They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.

6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.

7All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,

8"He trusts in Yahweh; let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him." Matt 27.42

9But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust at my mother's breasts.

10I was thrown on you from my mother's womb. You are my God since my mother bore me. luke 1

11Don't be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is none to help.

12Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

13They open their mouths wide against me, lions tearing prey and roaring.

14I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is melted within me. (john 19.34)

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.

17I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.

18They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing. (john 19.24)

19But don't be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog.

21Save me from the lion's mouth! Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen, you have answered me.

22I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly, I will praise you. John 17.6

23You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!

24For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.

25Of you comes my praise in the great assembly. I will pay my vows before those who fear him.

26The humble shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise Yahweh who seek after him. Let your hearts live forever.

27All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.

28For the kingdom is Yahweh's. He is the ruler over the nations. matt 24.14

29All the rich ones of the earth shall eat and worship. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can't keep his soul alive.

30 Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.

31They shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a people that shall be born, for he has done it.

Any thoughts?

[marco]

[Replying to post 29 by JehovahsWitness]

Interesting material. Of course the experiments did not replicate the victims who had their legs broken and they actually removed those who felt pain when the foot rest was removed. So unfortunately the experiment throws no light on the usual victims who had their legs broken, and may well have died from asphyxiation, though I can't see why that matters much.

I understand the investigation involved the image on the Turin shroud.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

I think JW's point, Marco, was that regardless of health, asphyxiation brings death either quickly, or... very quickly.

Actually, I would say that what may really be the case was that actual death was due to heart failure brought on by relatively slow asphyxiation. Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross, gives us a vivid picture of the crucifixion and seems to indicate this in verses 14 and 15. Not that Jesus somehow diagnosed Himself on the cross, but I'm sure He knew very well what He was feeling, His physical suffering, and His agony is described in graphic detail here.

But regardless, you're right -- arguing over the real cause of death is pointless.

[marco]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

I think JW's point, Marco, was that regardless of health, asphyxiation brings death either quickly, or... very quickly.

Is that what you think PinSeeker? I was commenting on the material JW offered, one of the conclusions of which was: "The asphyxiation theory is completely untenable. "
I have always thought asphyxiation occurs when the leg support is removed, but the experimenters reached another conclusion. I don't support the method they arrived at their conclusions since they did not and could not replicate a real situation.

Actually, I would say that what may really be the case was that actual death was due to heart failure brought on by relatively slow asphyxiation.

This is even less likely in the case of Christ whose death seemed premature, not caused by "slow" asphyxiation. His legs still supported him. I have no doubt he didn't enjoy the experience.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

I think JW's point, Marco, was that regardless of health, asphyxiation brings death either quickly, or... very quickly.

Is that what you think PinSeeker? I was commenting on the material JW offered, one of the conclusions of which was: "The asphyxiation theory is completely untenable. "
I have always thought asphyxiation occurs when the leg support is removed, but the experimenters reached another conclusion. I don't support the method they arrived at their conclusions since they did not and could not replicate a real situation.

Actually, I would say that what may really be the case was that actual death was due to heart failure brought on by relatively slow asphyxiation.

This is even less likely in the case of Christ whose death seemed premature, not caused by "slow" asphyxiation. His legs still supported him. I have no doubt he didn't enjoy the experience.

Whatever. I didn't look at any of his sources. I just assumed he was arguing for asphyxiation because that seemed to be his position. Regardless, asphyxiation, if not the ultimate cause of death, played a big part in Christ's quick death:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/200 ... equestions

We know that Jesus's wrists were nailed to the cross in an outstretched position to conform his body to the cross itself. We know that His feet were also nailed to the cross. His legs would not have supported Him for very long even if they were not broken because He would have been unable to push up from His feet due to intense pain. As this article says, He "would have no choice but to bear his weight on his chest. He would immediately have trouble breathing as the weight caused the rib cage to lift up and force him into an almost perpetual state of inhalation."

Replication is really unnecessary. Asphyxiation is certainly plausible, but discerning the actual cause of death is not relevant. He died, and quite quickly, especially because he was beaten terribly before he was hung on the cross, even to the point that he was practically unrecognizable as a human being. He was probably very close to death before He was even hung on the cross.

But regardless of any of this, in my humble opinion, debate on the actual cause of death -- or even how quickly it occurred -- although maybe somewhat interesting, is a waste of time.

[marco]

We know that Jesus's wrists were nailed to the cross in an outstretched position to conform his body to the cross itself. We know that His feet were also nailed to the cross. His legs would not have supported Him for very long even if they were not broken because He would have been unable to push up from His feet due to intense pain. As this article says, He "would have no choice but to bear his weight on his chest. He would immediately have trouble breathing as the weight caused the rib cage to lift up and force him into an almost perpetual state of inhalation."

The Guardian article contradicts the other article, which is also from people who feel they can affirm what happened. We don't know but we can speculate.


If Jesus was the same person who negotiated the surdace of a sea then explaining his discomfort on a cross is pointless. We do not "know" precisely how he was crucified: there were various means. Traditionally his hands were pierced but we've moved from that position to his wrists. For a man on the edge of death, worn and weary from his lashes, he had a lot to say for himself, even joking about Paradise with one of his fellow victims, leaving us an ambiguous conundrum in his reported expression.

Just as we have made his birthplace the lowest of the low, we have made his death struggle an exercise in brutality. We don't hear much about the suffering of the two beside him. His biographers had complete freedom to add and subtract what they wanted: they could introduce thunder and lightning for effect, last words to heaven and corpses getting out of their graves, then angels squatting in Christ's sepulchre.


Tacitus says he was executed and suffered the ultimate penalty. That's as much as we know: he erred criminally and was punished. How and when he breathed his last is of no great relevance.

[PinSeeker]

The Guardian article contradicts the other article, which is also from people who feel they can affirm what happened. We don't know but we can speculate.

The Guardian article makes no real claim but merely gives a scientific account of what happens to the human body when it is crucified. The only real claim is that death resulting from crucifixion can happen several different ways, of which asphyxiation and heart failure are two.

Tacitus says he was executed and suffered the ultimate penalty.

Absolutely.

That's as much as we know: he erred criminally and was punished.

Well, this is not true; indeed it's not even what Tacitus himself says. It's only your little addition, and thus your opinion. However, we do in fact know, both from the Bible and from Tacitus, that Jesus was found innocent by Pontius Pilate and subsequently handed over to the Jewish authorities to deal with how they saw fit; Pilate "washed his hands of the matter." And from the Bible, we know that not even the Jewish authorities could find any fault in Him other than silence before His accusers.

How and when he breathed his last is of no great relevance.

Agreed; this is what I've said three times now. Thank you.

Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

That's as much as we know: he erred criminally and was punished.

Well, this is not true; indeed it's not even what Tacitus himself says. It's only your little addition, and thus your opinion. However, we do in fact know, both from the Bible and from Tacitus, that Jesus was found innocent by Pontius Pilate

I am aware of what Tacitus wrote:

" Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat;"

"While Tiberius was emperor Christ suffered the extreme penalty at the hands of our procurator Pontius Pilate."

This is the extent of his commentary on Christ and there's no mention of innocence. It means that in the eyes of the then law Jesus was guilty and executed, as I said. I'm aware his followers issued a post mortem defence, blaming the Jewish nation for Christ's execution. Tacitus has nothing to say of this. Why would he? If you have a further text from Tacitus I'd be delighted to read it. So would historians.



Go well.

[PinSeeker]

This is the extent of his commentary on Christ and there's no mention of innocence.

That's correct... or crime, for that matter.

It means that in the eyes of the then law Jesus was guilty and executed, as I said.

Nope. It just means Tacitus was a good little Roman who didn't accuse Pilate of condemning an innocent man and thus putting himself in in mortal danger.

Tacitus has nothing to say of this. Why would he?

Right. My point exactly. Every reason in the world to stay silent on the matter. See above.

Go well.

The same to you, my friend. Grace and peace.

[brianbbs67]

That's as much as we know: he erred criminally and was punished.

Well, this is not true; indeed it's not even what Tacitus himself says. It's only your little addition, and thus your opinion. However, we do in fact know, both from the Bible and from Tacitus, that Jesus was found innocent by Pontius Pilate

I am aware of what Tacitus wrote:

" Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat;"

"While Tiberius was emperor Christ suffered the extreme penalty at the hands of our procurator Pontius Pilate."

This is the extent of his commentary on Christ and there's no mention of innocence. It means that in the eyes of the then law Jesus was guilty and executed, as I said. I'm aware his followers issued a post mortem defence, blaming the Jewish nation for Christ's execution. Tacitus has nothing to say of this. Why would he? If you have a further text from Tacitus I'd be delighted to read it. So would historians.



Go well.

Justivius Flavius had about the same thing to say in Antiquites 18:3:3. I guess we could say God was merciful and he died quickly but that is relative. If I was the Christ, I would have wanted to die sooner. Romans were quite adept at prolonged torment.

[marco]

Nope. It just means Tacitus was a good little Roman who didn't accuse Pilate of condemning an innocent man and thus putting himself in in mortal danger.

Have you read any Tacitus? He was a good historian. He held Christians in some contempt as did other educated Romans but in his writing he was actually condemning Nero for his unwarranted attack on the Christians. The law at the time was Roman law and Jesus did fall foul of that law. The stuff we have on what Pilate said was heard by whom? To Tacitus Jesus was just a criminal from whom arose some obnoxious superstitions.

In his work, Agricola, Tacitus actually makes a case against Rome: They create a desert and call it peace. So let's not call him a good little Roman. He stuck closer to truth than the atrocious Matthew.