homosexuality is NOT a sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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icetiger300
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homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #1

Post by icetiger300 »

Hello, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not condemned and here's why.

These are not 100% accurate translations of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they've been taken them out of their Scriptural and cultural context.

So, let"s put them back, and have a look"

Because they are basically repeating, I will just deal with the non murderous verse Leviticus 18:22.

That chapter starts off with God telling Moses to tell the Israelites to "not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices."

It then goes on listing many various incestual restrictions, and then it tells not to have sex with a woman when she is having her period, then it tells not to have sex with your neighbors wife.

Then it takes a completely different turn, and tells not to give any of your children to be sacrificed to the Pagan god Molek.

After that, the restrictions of a mankind with mankind and sex with animals come in.

The reason for that is because back then in the culture God was referring to, the Pagans would start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

However, if you chose to ignore all of that, it is a fact that those two verses were only referring to men, and that means they could not refer to any and all homosexual sex for any reason.

One must factor in the cultural and Scriptural context. The Jews of that time, and in that culture did not know that a woman had a egg. They thought the the man's seed was like the seed of a plant, and the woman was (Like an incubator) just to be implanted with their seed. They also held increasing their numbers to the utmost importance. There are a few reasons for that, but the most crucial, was because they wanted to make their religion more dominant.

So, their reasons were based on their biological ignorance, and for the most part selfishness.

Given their belief they viewed any use of a man's seed other than for the attempt at procreation to be anything from uncleanliness, all the way up to murder.

Given this, it's not surprising that that would have an issue with a man having sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, if you take all of that into consideration, and the fact that they were coming into contact with cultures that embraced things like pederasty, and Pagan fertility orgies. It would be no surprise to see a lot of parts in the Old Testament (Torah) that strictly forbade men having any kind of sex other than sex to procreate.

But, in fact there are only 2 out of 23,145 verses in the Old Testament (Torah) that some state have to do with it directly forbidding men having sex with men. And, as I have pointed out, it is clearly backed up by the Scriptural and cultural context, that it was not any and all homosexual sex that was being condemned.

It is paganism.

I forgot to add this regarding Leviticus chapter 20...

If the focus of that murderous chapter was not surrounding Pagan idolatry, why would it start off with this?...

(Leviticus 20:1-5)

The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: "Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.A279;

With Romans:26-28 it is actually right there in the context of the scriptures that Paul was not referring to homosexuals. I think you would agree that just because someone engages in homosexual sex does not mean they are a hoimosexual.

Here is the context...

"Because of this, God gave them over"

Because of what? Here is what...

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"who is forever praised. Amen.

Now that is not Paul reffering to homosexuals, those people were Pagans engaging in idolatrous sex orgies.

Again...

The reason for that is because back then in the culture Paul was referring to, the Pagans would occasionally start off their fertility ritual with a child sacrifice. What would follow was an orgy, where the women, but most of all the men, would have sex with anything and anybody. But they were very careful to do it in a way that would not impregnate anyone, that was only for the woman they were married to. So, they would have sex with animals and anal sex with Galli priests, and temple prostitutes.

They fully believed that what they were doing pleased their gods and goddesses. They believed that it would bring all forms of fertility to them and their land, but they were not homosexuals sexuality expressing their love and attraction for one another, the vast majority of them were not even homosexuals.

The fact is that there was never any Greek or Hebrew words that were used in refrance to homosexuality used anywhere in the Scriptures, and there were words that would have left to question as to what the writer was reffering to. It is humans that have been equating aspects of Paganism with homosexuality, not the writers of the Scriptures or God. This is nothing new, things like this have been going on for as long as the Scriptures have existed.


Oh yeah. about "Sodom and Gomorrah".

Why is it that some of you have equated an angry mob threatening to gang rape some strangers in their city with homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that not one Jew/Hebrew/Israelite in almost 4000 years ever taught that? They have always taught that the people of "Sodom" treated strangers and the needy sadistically at times, there are horrible stories regarding this in their teachings. Are you also aware of the fact that there is not one living Biblical Scholar that believes that homosexuality was the reason for their destruction? Even the Scriptures where Jesus and God describe the reasons, it was not due to homosexuality.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus Christ condemns specific towns which reject His disciples to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

These passages from Jesus show that hospitality was seen as a quality of righteousness in the ancient world.

Any city that proved inhospitable, was condemned to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain indeed treated visitors with cruelty, brutality, and viciousness.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 is a unique passage in that God Himself talks of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

This passage confirms the above allegations concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of the plain were "overfed", indicating a wealth and abundance of food and resources.

They were "unconcerned", as Isaiah and Jeremiah both pointed to their arrogance, and "haughty and did detestable things", demonstrated in their treatment of the young girls and their treatment of God's angels.

They also refused to help the needy and the poor, an indication of the selfishness of the people.

If it would not have been for the intercession of the angels, Lot might have been counted amongst the Sodomites victims. And, the Angles would have most likely been killed.

I hope that clears up your confusion, and that you stop spreading lies and distortions that have caused nothing but harm and death to multi-millions of God's children and in His name worst of all.

Correct if I'm wrong christians.

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Post #101

Post by Bust Nak »

Overcomer wrote: I have often heard people argue that homosexuality exists in the animal world and, therefore, it's natural and acceptable for human beings to engage in it.
You say that yet I've never heard anyone argued that homosexuality exists in the animal world and, therefore, it's natural and acceptable for human beings to engage in it. And I frequent online discussion boards. What I do hear constantly is the argument that homosexuality is not natural and hence unacceptable for human beings to engage in it.

The same objection applies to RightReason's post too, tam merely explained that homosexuality in the context of child-rearing exist in nature without suggesting one way or the other that it is acceptable for human.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #102

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote:
Overgeneralization. I can use a screw driver to hammer a nail into the wall instead of a hammer if I like (it would be a bit foolish, slower, probably more dangerous, and not be as efficient – but I could do that if I wanted).
I think the above encapsulates your entire method of arguing - if it's unusual, then it is wrong. I don't believe homosexuals choose their object of affection any more than do heterosexuals. Hammers and screwdrivers again are useless analogies.

Nature is not a suitable judge on what is right and what is wrong. We look at two men who, loving each other, kiss. If we are fair-minded, we see nothing wrong in this. The only possible way in which we can detect sin is in using religious considerations, not nature or science or shape or logic.

So let us conclude that religious reasons may make homosexuality a sin, but we stopped killling witches and now we have stopped punishing homosexuals. Let us be thankful for that and deplore those areas of the world where our felow humans are being murdered because they dare to say nature has made them harmlessly different.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #103

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to marco]
I think the above encapsulates your entire method of arguing - if it's unusual, then it is wrong.
Then you aren’t listening very well. For one thing, I wouldn’t call homosexual unions unusual. Rainbow flags are everywhere these days – pretty common fare.

Also, my argument has NEVER been it is unusual and therefore wrong. Serial killing is unusual, but that’s not why it’s wrong.

I don't believe homosexuals choose their object of affection any more than do heterosexuals.
What about pedophiles or those who engage in bestiality?

If a person has a pre disposition to alcoholism does that mean alcoholism must be good/right? Your comments don’t make a logical argument.

Hammers and screwdrivers again are useless analogies.
Because you miss the point once again of the analogy. The point being man can know what is right and good in this world based on clues from the world. Some of these clues are based on our observation of design, order, function, form, shape, etc. Some of these clues are based on consequences (when blank occurs – blank happens).
Nature is not a suitable judge on what is right and what is wrong.
On the contrary – nature is our biggest clue. Man can derive what is right/wrong from scientific observation about how the world works.

We look at two men who, loving each other, kiss. If we are fair-minded, we see nothing wrong in this.
Why should that be considered fair-minded? What if we look at a man and a cow kissing, is it fair-minded to consider the relationship wrong?
The only possible way in which we can detect sin is in using religious considerations, not nature or science or shape or logic.
I have demonstrated the complete opposite.
So let us conclude that religious reasons may make homosexuality a sin
Well, you can, but your conclusion would be wrong.

Is “Thou shalt not kill� a truth of religion or a truth of reason? Should we get rid of laws forbidding murder because its prohibition is found in many religions?

Marriage existed before religion and the state. It was defined by the sexual union between a man and a woman and originally for the purpose of protection of children -- something inherent in the nature between a man and a woman.

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #104

Post by Bust Nak »

RightReason wrote: Also, my argument has NEVER been it is unusual and therefore wrong. Serial killing is unusual, but that’s not why it’s wrong.
You say that, yet there you are saying it's unnatural and therefore wrong.
If a person has a pre disposition to alcoholism does that mean alcoholism must be good/right? Your comments don’t make a logical argument.
Pah, you are doing it again! No one is saying it's not a choice therefore it's okay. Quit it.
Because you miss the point once again of the analogy. The point being man can know what is right and good in this world based on clues from the world. Some of these clues are based on our observation of design, order, function, form, shape, etc. Some of these clues are based on consequences (when blank occurs – blank happens).
For what's it's worth, there are a lot of shapes that fit great...
On the contrary – nature is our biggest clue. Man can derive what is right/wrong from scientific observation about how the world works.
What works isn't what is morally right. Here you are conflating it. It's a fallacy.
Why should that be considered fair-minded? What if we look at a man and a cow kissing, is it fair-minded to consider the relationship wrong?
Then you are considered wrong.
Is “Thou shalt not kill� a truth of religion or a truth of reason? Should we get rid of laws forbidding murder because its prohibition is found in many religions?
Why should we, there is secular reason why murder is wrong.
Marriage existed before religion and the state. It was defined by the sexual union between a man and a woman and originally for the purpose of protection of children.
And now it's defined by the union of two adult as partners in a personal relationship.
-- something inherent in the nature between a man and a woman.
If it was inherent then it wouldn't be "defined," it would simple "be."

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Post #105

Post by imhereforyou »

I've always wondered (maybe erroneously) why this is such a big deal to everyone anyway. If you think it's a sin, don't do it. What two (or more) women (or men) do privately shouldn't be an issue to anyone else.
If a sinner wants to come to church and continue to live in sin, what business is it of anyone else? Unless they're holding you down and making you 'sin' it's none of your business.

After all, those two gay women have zero influence on your god, his opinion on you and if you get into heaven or not.
Everyone is said to answer for their own lives. In other words, Christian Joe doesn't have to answer for Elizabeth and Carol's sex life.

Make a statement of an opinion. Others can agree with it or not. Debate and learn from each other.
Then move on with your life and do your own thing.
You have enough issues of your own you nee to worry about without having to worry about Beth and Carol.

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Post #106

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to imhereforyou]

A quick reply . . .
I've always wondered (maybe erroneously) why this is such a big deal to everyone anyway.

I’ve never really understood this comment. First, I’ not sure what you mean by a big deal. Is this something I lose sleep over every night? Of course not, but none of what is discussed on this forum is. But the discussion isn’t how much does something affect my life personally, because heck even sex trafficking or extreme poverty in some third world country does not affect my life personally, but I can still say it is wrong and desire to do something about it. Also, once again when people engage in behavior that is contrary to the moral order, they do hurt themselves and others. Immorality is not a victimless crime.
Make a statement of an opinion. Others can agree with it or not. Debate and learn from each other.
I would suggest that is exactly what is going on here. Do you see something different?

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Post #107

Post by imhereforyou »

[Replying to post 106 by RightReason]

I’ve never really understood this comment. First, I’ not sure what you mean by a big deal.
Big deal would be, basically, why do you care what two people do in the privacy of their own homes? Why do you take it upon yourself to condemn actions as if you were God's 'right hand man' when the actions of others have no bearing whatsoever on your eternal life?
even sex trafficking or extreme poverty in some third world country does not affect my life personally, but I can still say it is wrong and desire to do something about it.
Sure have all the opinions you want - we all can and probably should. Say this is wrong or right or whatever. The problem is when people make lives difficult for others based on their opinion.

[
I would suggest that is exactly what is going on here. Do you see something different?
I never said otherwise - simply reply to a post and nothing more. The overall concept of impacting others is the issue - not what some random people type on line (myself included).

(When I say YOU I'm speaking in general, not towards you specifically).

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Re: homosexuality is NOT a sin

Post #108

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to post 1 by icetiger300]

Lately, I've started to question homosexuality again despite being strongly pro-same-sex-marriage and legal protection for homosexuals in my younger years, hearing the popular versions outside the Bible.

For example,
- are really homosexuals represented in nature like that despite "some science saying so"?
- can it be that homosexuality is at a level down the downward spiral to becoming a fully perverted monster?
- can it, therefore, be that homosexuals never should be allowed to adopt kids?

Of course, all people should enjoy human rights and crime should be prosecuted by the police. But being critical to homosexuality again, now, can it be that homosexuals should be booked by police or receive probation or short prison sentence for being homosexuals given possible new investigations into their personal morality by fMRI?

While it does not seem intuitively wrong that two consenting people (of the same sex) are kissing one another, there are those other aspects of the mentality, the possible hidden crimes... It should be possible to investigate, also by Kantian ethical and moral psychology in describing who they really represent, who they are...

:study:
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

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