Resurrected to everlasting shame and contempt

[Yahu]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Clearly Daniel is speaking of the tribulation. It is often referenced as the 'time of Jacob's trouble' in the OT prophets.

Then the resurrection of the dead, ie those whose bodies sleep in the dust that awake, is mentioned but some get everlasting life while others get shame and everlasting contempt.

We also have a reference to differing levels of glory from individual to individual in the resurrection. Some will be dim in glory while others will shine with glory or even great glory yet others are raised to everlasting shame and contempt.

So would they be those individuals 'dim' in glory or a reference to those cast into the lake of fire for eternity? If they are 'dim', do they reside in the 'outer darkness' with all the other 'dim' individuals, those invited to the wedding feast but lack their wedding garments? Do they lack the reward of robes of righteousness? Are they the poor, blind and naked individuals that fail to overcome the error of the church of Laodicia?

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Faith by grace gets you into the kingdom but we must BUY gold, white raiment and eye salve. How many get into the kingdom but failed to BUY those things?

Are those raised to everlasting contempt the ones that have salvation but fail to overcome any error within their life, those that just got salvation as fire insurance?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Yes that is speaking of the Great Tribulation and what happens shortly afterward. After Armageddon, all the dead will be brought back to life on earth and will be given the chance to learn, if they have no knowledge of God, all people will be taught out of "new scrolls," and everyone will be brought back to perfection to be equal to the way Adam was before he rebelled. At the end of the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ, during which the Resurrection occurs, everyone will be given the opportunity to decide finally if they want to worship Jehovah as Sovereign of the universe, or if they don't want to. Those that side with Satan will be destroyed---"cast into the lake of fire"---which means total annihilation, not conscious torture somewhere.

The First Resurrection---of Christ's co-rulers---will happen before Armageddon breaks out, because they come with him at Armageddon. So there are two resurrections....the first for Christ's co-rulers, and the second, during the Millennial Reign, for all the billions dead from the beginning of the human race.

[WebersHome]

[font=Verdana]-
According to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29, there's only one resurrection
allotted per person. So then, when people are put to death in the lake of fire
and brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 they won't be coming back because
they will have used up their one allotted resurrection to face justice at the
Great White Throne.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[/font]

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Yes that is speaking of the Great Tribulation and what happens shortly afterward. After Armageddon, all the dead will be brought back to life on earth and will be given the chance to learn, if they have no knowledge of God, all people will be taught out of "new scrolls," and everyone will be brought back to perfection to be equal to the way Adam was before he rebelled. At the end of the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ, during which the Resurrection occurs, everyone will be given the opportunity to decide finally if they want to worship Jehovah as Sovereign of the universe, or if they don't want to. Those that side with Satan will be destroyed---"cast into the lake of fire"---which means total annihilation, not conscious torture somewhere.

The First Resurrection---of Christ's co-rulers---will happen before Armageddon breaks out, because they come with him at Armageddon. So there are two resurrections....the first for Christ's co-rulers, and the second, during the Millennial Reign, for all the billions dead from the beginning of the human race.

No, it says, they are resurrected to EVERLASTING shame and contempt. It is hard to feel shame if you no longer exist. Sorry, but your doctrine just doesn't fit this scripture. Shame is what they feel for themselves. Contempt is what others feel for them. Besides you didn't answer the question, who are those raised to EVERLASTING shame and contempt?

Besides, there have already been at least 2 resurrections. The former dead were seen walking around Jerusalem just after the resurrection of Yeshua. There is also the resurrection of the martyrs from the tribulation that happen at the end of the tribulation. There is a lot more then 2 resurrections.

[Yahu]

[font=Verdana]-
According to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29, there's only one resurrection
allotted per person. So then, when people are put to death in the lake of fire
and brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 they won't be coming back because
they will have used up their one allotted resurrection to face justice at the
Great White Throne.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[/font]

Yes, one per individual but different groups go at different times.

But that doesn't answer the question of the OP? Who are those raised to everlasting contempt?

[ttruscott]

But that doesn't answer the question of the OP? Who are those raised to everlasting contempt?

They are the goats through all time, those who are conceived as humans condemned already for unbelief, those who are the people of the evil one sown (not created) into the world by the devil...they are Satan and his demonic angels living as humans who will end in the lake of fire prepared for them.

[JehovahsWitness]

No, it says, they are resurrected to EVERLASTING shame and contempt. .

No IT does not, you have changed the word order of the text (ie Misquoted) the text you yourself used. Compare what you claim it says to what it actually says below:

"some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt"

Notice you have moved the word "everlasting" to a position that supports an alternative reading.


Is Daniel 12:2 suggesting the wicked will live forever in some form so they can feel shame forever?

Daniel 12:2 reads "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Firstly as I stated above, it is intellectually honest not to misquote or change the text in question just to support a personal view. Looking at the scripture as is, the latter group are faced with two duel eventualities 1) shame and 2) contempt. However the adjective "everlasting" it NOT attributed to the shame (felt by the antagonist but ONLY to "contempt" felt by their opponents. In other words wicked experence shame and they are eternally the object of contempt. To convey the idea that BOTH shame and contempt were everlasting, the logical order in English would be to place the adjective BEFORE the word being modified "shame" ie "to everlasting shame and contempt".

You will see from the link below this is NOT what English translators do, rather unanimously they maintain a syntax that reflects the orginal Hebrew and emphasises distinction between the "shame" (the duration of which is not stated) and "the contempt" which is modified to be everlasting.
http://biblehub.com/daniel/12-2.htm

Thus Pulpits Commentary refers to the rendering of the Peshitta as being "And many of those that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to life everlasting, and some to destruction and contempt of their friends for ever."

Barnes Notes on the bible explains, regarding the everlasting contempt " in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial. The word everlasting completes the image, meaning that this feeling of loathing and abhorrence would continue forever."

CONCLUSION: Grammatically it is inaccurate to conclude that Daniel 12:2 is suggesting that the shame felt by the wicked will be everlasting, in the sense they will in a position to feel shame without end since an accurate reading of the texts clearly indicates that it is the contempt (felt by the just for those that hate God) that will be everlasting. The wicked will eventually being annialated and no longer able to feel anything at all. (see Ecc 9:5)

[Yahu]

No, it says, they are resurrected to EVERLASTING shame and contempt. .

No IT does not, you have changed the word order of the text (ie Misquoted) the text you yourself used. Compare what you claim it says to what it actually says below:

"some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt"

Notice you have moved the word "everlasting" to a position that supports an alternative reading.


Is Daniel 12:2 suggesting the wicked will live forever in some form so they can feel shame forever?

Daniel 12:2 reads "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Firstly as I stated above, it is intellectually honest not to misquote or change the text in question just to support a personal view. Looking at the scripture as is, the latter group are faced with two duel eventualities 1) shame and 2) contempt. However the adjective "everlasting" it NOT attributed to the shame (felt by the antagonist but ONLY to "contempt" felt by their opponents. In other words wicked experence shame and they are eternally the object of contempt. To convey the idea that BOTH shame and contempt were everlasting, the logical order in English would be to place the adjective BEFORE the word being modified "shame" ie "to everlasting shame and contempt".

You will see from the link below this is NOT what English translators do, rather unanimously they maintain a syntax that reflects the orginal Hebrew and emphasises distinction between the "shame" (the duration of which is not stated) and "the contempt" which is modified to be everlasting.
http://biblehub.com/daniel/12-2.htm

Thus Pulpits Commentary refers to the rendering of the Peshitta as being "And many of those that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to life everlasting, and some to destruction and contempt of their friends for ever."

Barnes Notes on the bible explains, regarding the everlasting contempt " in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial. The word everlasting completes the image, meaning that this feeling of loathing and abhorrence would continue forever."

CONCLUSION: Grammatically it is inaccurate to conclude that Daniel 12:2 is suggesting that the shame felt by the wicked will be everlasting, in the sense they will in a position to feel shame without end since an accurate reading of the texts clearly indicates that it is the contempt (felt by the just for those that hate God) that will be everlasting. The wicked will eventually being annialated and no longer able to feel anything at all. (see Ecc 9:5)

This is the type of problem you get when you don't know the source language. There is no 'AND' in this verse in Hebrew between shame and eternal contempt. It is all one state of being. The 'AND' was added for ENGLISH readability issues. Basically the Hebrew says 'shame contempt everlasting'.

That passage could just as easily said 'shameful everlasting contempt'. Hebrew uses a 'vav' at the beginning of a word to say 'this Vthat' to represent an 'and' linking them as additional items. Check your interlinear, it isn't there!

Besides that, Im not proposing that those in shame and everlasting contempt are the wicked. These are NOT the wicked, but the contemptuous. These are the least in the kingdom, not those in the lake of fire. FALSE TEACHERS would probably fall into this category.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel is clear in verse 3 that there are variations in levels of glory between those resurrected. The righteous teacher shines greater then the wise man but what of those that are unrighteous fools that basically crawl into the kingdom in their spiritual diapers?

Verse 1 also links this resurrection to the resurrection at the time of the tribulation, that is the resurrection of those saved, NOT of the wicked. Those of shame and everlasting contempt are in the 'saved group'.

1 Cor 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Some will shine as the sun while others in THIS RESURRECTION will be like the dimmest stars. Those individuals that lack personal glory are those of EVERLASTING shame and contempt.

These are those that fail to overcome error within their life. An example would be those caught up in demonic doctrines and teach those doctrines as truth and lead others into error. False prophets that start cults will definitely have shame and everlasting contempt from those they led into that error.

[JehovahsWitness]

This is the type of problem you get when you don't know the source language. .

So are you suggesting that none of the bible translators quoted know the source language and that this explains their erroneous English rendition which you have corrected by changing the English word order? In short are you suggesting that your changing the word order in English (and claiming that is what the scripture said (in English) is based on a Superior knowledge of Hebrew? If so, feel free to substentiate your claim.

As it is, I have yet to see a single source where the "everlasting" (olam) is linked with BOTH shame and contempt. It seems evident this is because of the word order of the the original Hebrew. I readily admit I do not speak or read Hebrew but I am not incapable of understanding and explination, so if you do speak ancient Hebrew and can justify your, to say the least, somewhat singular position on how the English SHOULD be rendered I await the hebrew lesson with anticipation.


http://biblehub.com/text/daniel/12-2.htm

New International Version
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

New Living Translation
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

English Standard Version
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

New American Standard Bible
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

King James Bible
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, and some to shame and eternal contempt.

International Standard Version
Many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken—some to life everlasting, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

NET Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake--some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Many sleeping in the ground will wake up. Some will wake up to live forever, but others will wake up to be ashamed and disgraced forever.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.

New American Standard 1977
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be awakened, some for eternal life, and some for shame and everlasting confusion.

King James 2000 Bible
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

American King James Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

American Standard Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

Darby Bible Translation
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

English Revised Version
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Webster's Bible Translation
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

World English Bible
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during

.


JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Yes that is speaking of the Great Tribulation and what happens shortly afterward. After Armageddon, all the dead will be brought back to life on earth and will be given the chance to learn, if they have no knowledge of God, all people will be taught out of "new scrolls," and everyone will be brought back to perfection to be equal to the way Adam was before he rebelled. At the end of the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ, during which the Resurrection occurs, everyone will be given the opportunity to decide finally if they want to worship Jehovah as Sovereign of the universe, or if they don't want to. Those that side with Satan will be destroyed---"cast into the lake of fire"---which means total annihilation, not conscious torture somewhere.

The First Resurrection---of Christ's co-rulers---will happen before Armageddon breaks out, because they come with him at Armageddon. So there are two resurrections....the first for Christ's co-rulers, and the second, during the Millennial Reign, for all the billions dead from the beginning of the human race.

No, it says, they are resurrected to EVERLASTING shame and contempt. It is hard to feel shame if you no longer exist. Sorry, but your doctrine just doesn't fit this scripture. Shame is what they feel for themselves. Contempt is what others feel for them. Besides you didn't answer the question, who are those raised to EVERLASTING shame and contempt?

Besides, there have already been at least 2 resurrections. The former dead were seen walking around Jerusalem just after the resurrection of Yeshua. There is also the resurrection of the martyrs from the tribulation that happen at the end of the tribulation. There is a lot more then 2 resurrections.

Yes I did answer the question. I said that some who will have been raised back up to life during the Millennial Reign will, after being able to learn all about the truth, reject it and choose to follow Satan. Remember that Satan will be let loose after the Thousand Years, and he will give one last-ditch attempt to take down as many with him as he can?

"As soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth...to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7,8)

So all those people who go with Satan, even after having been taught the truth, will be those "raised to everlasting shame and contempt." They don't have to be alive to be the ones to suffer shame. Their mere memory would engender shame in anyone who chose to love God and stay with Him. Shame FOR THAT PERSON.

Besides, to believe that a person must remain alive to suffer shame (which they wouldn't feel anyway), you go absolutely against what the Bible says is the punishment for willful sin---DEATH. To be alive somewhere, in some literal fire, is not being dead.

"The wages of sin is DEATH." (Romans 6:23)

"The dead know not anything." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)