Questioning Paul/Saul

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Zzyzx
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Questioning Paul/Saul

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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A great deal of the New Testament (31% of the total and thirteen of the twenty seven books of the New Testament) is attributed to Paul/Saul. He was apparently a (or the) driving force / originator of early Christianity and a mainstay of modern Christianity.

However, there are reasons to question the truth and accuracy of what his writings.

First, Christian scholars and theologians are in general agreement that some epistles attributed to Paul/Saul were actually written by others.
There is wide consensus in modern New Testament scholarship on a core group of authentic Pauline epistles whose authorship is rarely contested: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Several additional letters bearing Paul's name lack academic consensus, namely Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus. Scholarly opinion is sharply divided on whether Ephesians and Colossians are the letters of Paul; however, the remaining four–2 Thessalonians, as well as the three known as the Pastoral epistles–have been labeled pseudepigraphical works by most critical scholars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorshi ... e_epistles

Thus, seven (about half) are deemed authentic Paul/Saul, four are generally considered pseudepigraphical (written by others and falsely assigned) and two are disputed.

Second, Paul/Saul himself said VERY little about the “vision� (“conversion�) and did NOT describe the event. All he said was:

In the Pauline epistles, the description of the conversion experience is brief. The First Epistle to the Corinthians[9:1][15:3-8] describes Paul as having seen the risen Christ:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
— 1 Cor. 15:3–8, NIV

The Epistle to the Galatians also describes his conversion as a divine revelation, with Jesus appearing to Paul.
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.
— Galatians 1:11-16, NIV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... e_epistles

Detailed accounts of the “vision� were written by the author of “Acts of the Apostles� attributed to Luke (whoever that may have been). Acts 9:3–9, –  Acts 9:13–19. That is a second-hand account by a person whose identity is unknown to or disputed by scholars and theologians – and who cannot be shown to have personal knowledge of the event (only what he was told by others) – AND who was writing decades or generations after the claimed event.

Christianity is heavily dependent upon the “vision� tale being true. If it is not, much of Christianity is based upon a false / fictional / imaginary event – that was NOT described by the supposed participant.

Questions for debate:

1. Why believe the “vision� tale?

2. Why believe anything said by or about Paul/Saul?

3. Are there additional reasons to question the authenticity / veracity of Paul/Saul?
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Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

polonius
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Post #31

Post by polonius »

JLB32168 wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:This is an exceptionally mind-blowing question. Can you answer it for us? Indeed, why should anyone accept a natural/ordinary explanation over a supernatural one?

I know several people who went to the Holy Mountain in Greece. There are monks there – thousands of them. Several of them possess the ability to be clairvoyant, that is, people who go there looking for spiritual answers have gone to introduce themselves to the monk and he tells them the answer to their question before they’ve even asked it. I’ve seen icons weep myrrh. I’ve seen the newpaper images of the Marian vision from 1968 that occurred in Zeitun Egypt where the authorities shut off all power to that quadrant of the city to determine who was causing the hoax, but who were shocked when the luminous figure didn’t disappear after the power had been cut.
I let facts inform my conclusions and in these cases the facts didn’t jibe with mere natural explanations; therefore, I concluded they are supernatural in nature.


RESPONSE:

Yes. There a a lot of those weeping madonna and apparition stories going around.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

Estimates of the number of observers of the event vary greatly. Thousands were said to have flocked to the Church after the first announced occurrences of the phenomenon. Some claim the apparitions were seen by millions. Other sources estimate the figure at around 250,000 in total.

Cynthia Nelson was a professor of anthropology at AUC (American University in Cairo) and the founding director of the Institute of Gender and Women's Studies. She visited the church site on several occasions including April 15, 1968, another week later near the end of April and on June 1, 1968.

Despite the accounts of ongoing, if irregular, visitations by the Marian apparition, Cynthia Nelson documents seeing nothing other than a few 'intermittent flashes of light'.[7]

Nelson and others [8] suggest that the sightings must be considered in context. The appearances came at a period of crisis in Egyptian history and, according to this view, served as a beacon of peace and unity to Egyptians of every creed.
Sociologists Robert Bartholomew and Erich Goode offer the Zeitoun apparitions as a prominent case of mass delusion: “It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary.�

Additionally, the Zeitoun apparition has been investigated as being a possible example of the tectonic strain theory, although extreme skepticism has been directed at the idea that tectonic strain at a site distant from Zeitoun could generate a Marian apparition

1. Mass delusions, Highlights from the Past Millennium, Zeitoun, Egypt, 1968-1971 online
2. Jump up^ Derr, J.S., & Persinger, M.A. Geophysical variables and behavior: LIV. Zeitoun (Egypt) apparitions of the Virgin Mary as tectonic strain-induced luminosities. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 1989, 68, 123-128. online

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