Demons, evil spirits are ghosts.

[Yahu]

In answering another post I found a direct scriptural correlation between ghosts of the dead and an individual that is possessed by that 'evil spirit'.

The Book of Job has been a topic of study for me for many years. I had to go back to the original Hebrew because I can't find a good English translation that gets across the correct context of the arguement between Job and his 'friends' so I have been putting together my own commentary.

It turns out that Job's friends are all pagans and the argument is over which of the gods Job should be following because obviously he was being punished by one of the gods.

If you understand the context and the pagan references given by Job's friends, it is easy to see. Most of the times the word 'God' is translated in the passages spoken by the friends it should be 'god/gods or even goddess'. Job and his friends even use different Hebrew words that ALL get translated as 'God' with a capitol G in most translations.

So in chapter 8 Bildad tells Job to get an ancestral spirit guide.

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:
9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)
10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

So Bildad tells Job to find an ancient spirit that has alot longer time period then that of a man to advise and teach Job. Remember that Job is already old himself but is told to seek guidance from a 'former age'.

Later, when Job rebukes this same friend, Job accuses him of having a spirit speak through him, ie that he is possessed by that spirit.

Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

Job is asking Bildad what spirit are you letting speak through you? What the AV translates as 'dead things' here is the Hebrew word for 'ghost, shades of the dead'. It is easier to see in the Darby translation.

3 how hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom, and abundantly declared the thing as it is!
4 for whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5 the shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof;

The Darby translates it as 'shade', ie 'ghost'. The Hebrew word used here means 'spirit, shade of the dead, ghost' as opposed to Ruach, the other word for 'wind, breath, spirit'. It also uses a better translation for the verb as 'tremble' or could even be 'dance'.

And 'waters' in Hebrew is an idiom for people. Flesh and blood beings are made mostly of 'water'. This parallel is clearly spelled out in Revelation with the whore riding the beast out of the waters and she is over many waters which we are directly told those 'many waters' are people.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So the ghosts inhabits the 'waters' and move/tremble/dance from within that water and Job asked his friend 'what spirit' is speaking through you?

So this is the same friend that tells Job to seek an ancestrial spirit guide to gain knowledge!

That friend also tells Job that he is speaking with a 'strong spirit'.
Job 8:1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,
2 How long wilt thou speak these things? and how long shall the words of thy mouth be like a strong wind?

The word 'wind' in this case is Ruach, the general Hebrew word for 'wind, breath or spirit'. So that 'strong spirit' speaking through Job is the Holy Spirit.

Now the 'foolish woman' of Proverbs 9 also talks of ghosts from the depths of sheol/hell that inhabit the seductresses house.

13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.
14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,
15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:
16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

The word used for 'dead' in verse 18 is the same Hebrew word for 'shade of the dead, ghost'. In this case the 'evil spirits' that inhabit her house are 'ghosts' from the 'depths of hell'.

Evil spirits = ghosts in these scriptures. In one case, the ghost is inhabiting Job's friend Bildad.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Demons are evil spirits. They are not the "immortal souls" of humans that are now dead but rebellious angels that joined satan and are currently condemned to future destructions.

"Ghosts" do not exist. Demons (rebellious angels) often pretend to be dead people to mislead the gullible into believing dead loved ones or other individuals are still alive and seeking communication.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Demons are evil spirits. They are not the "immortal souls" of humans that are now dead but rebellious angels that joined satan and are currently condemned to future destructions.

"Ghosts" do not exist. Demons (rebellious angels) often pretend to be dead people to mislead the gullible into believing dead loved ones or other individuals are still alive and seeking communication.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

That isn't what scripture supports. That is unless your denomination rewrites scripture to take out what doesn't support their doctrines. I checked the NWT of those passages ...

There is a special curse for those that alter scripture.

BTW the actual word 'watchtower' is straight out of the ancient paganism. If you look up the meanings of the Canaanite cities in Joshua, there several 'watchtower' references. Nearly every place name is specifically referencing a title or attribute of the Canaanite gods.

Mizpah -watchtower
Ramathmizpah - high place of the watchtower
Migdalgad - tower of Gad, ie Baalgad, lord of luck,
Migdalel - god of the tower

Of course, they are among cities with names like:
Bizjothjah - to despise Yah.

I highly recommend studying out the name meanings in Joshua 11-19. It will open your eyes to the significance placed on their deities and their attributes and symbols.

For example:
Joshua 15:56 56 And Jezreel, and Jokdeam, and Zanoah,

Jezreel - god who sows his seed
Jokdeam - burns people
Zanoah - reject, cast off

I'd say you have some strongholds to pull down.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Yahu]

It most certainly is what scripture teaches. Ghosts (ie dead people communicating with the living) cannot exists because the bible says that the dead "know nothing" and that when one dies one "thoughts perish" indeed the bible is very explicit, saying "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (see Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5; Psalms 146:4)

Furthermore the words "immoral soul" never appear once together in scripture and the "soul" in scripture is also used in scripture to describe any living breathing thing that has blood in it and far frm saying that souls are immortal, the bible says that the "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (KJV Ez 18:20).

CONCLUSION: Since the bible says all thought and action ceases at death, that souls die when the "breath of life" returns to God, Ghosts can't exists since nothing is left of a dead person to wander the earth trying to communicate.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 3 by Yahu]

It most certainly is what scripture teaches. Ghosts (ie dead people communicating with the living) cannot exists because the bible says that the dead "know nothing" and that when one dies one "thoughts perish" indeed the bible is very explicit, saying "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (see Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5; Psalms 146:4)

Furthermore the words "immoral soul" never appear once together in scripture and the "soul" in scripture is also used in scripture to describe any living breathing thing that has blood in it and far frm saying that souls are immortal, the bible says that the "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (KJV Ez 18:20).

CONCLUSION: Since the bible says all thought and action ceases at death, that souls die when the "breath of life" returns to God, Ghosts can't exists since nothing is left of a dead person to wander the earth trying to communicate.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

So JW take a few verses out of context and build an entire doctrine on it and ignore all the scriptures that contradict that doctrine. To 'know nothing' is paralleled in other places in scripture to mean that they lack wisdom and understanding NOT to actually be devoid of thought entirely.

NWT Job 26: 4 To whom are you trying to speak,
And who inspired you <05397> to say such things?*
5 Those who are powerless in death <07496> tremble <02342>;
They are even lower than the waters and their inhabitants.

02342 chuwl khool or chiyl kheel

a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 623}

AV-pain 6, formed 5, bring forth 4, pained 4, tremble 4, travail 4, dance 2, calve 2, grieved 2, grievous 2, wounded 2, shake 2, misc 23; 62

1) to twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained

1b) (Polel)
1b1) to dance
1b2) to writhe (in travail with), bear, bring forth
1b3) to wait anxiously


In the above verse, the Polel form is used in the Hebrew.

07496 rapha raw-faw
from 07495 in the sense of 07503; n m pl; {See TWOT on 2198 "2198c"}

AV-dead 7, deceased 1; 8

1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits

So YOUR own corrupted version of scriptures state that those 'powerless in death' tremble! Granted it should state that the 'ghosts, shades of the dead' dance, twist, writhe, bring forth or wait anxiously. That seems pretty active for being dead.

05397 " nshamah nesh-aw-maw
from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 "1433a"}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

Can't you see how corrupted the NWT is? The way it is written, it implies that 'the dead are less then fish' verses that 'spirits inhabit the 'waters', ie people'. It makes absolutely no sense for Job to say the dead are less then fish after talking about the source of Bildad's inspiration.

As for the phrase "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave", I don't dispute that. How can a ghost reap or sow or do any physical labor? It is kind of hard for ghosts to use physical devises as well. No farming tools in hell to use. It is true there is no wisdom in Sheol/Hell. That is referenced other places in scripture. The Hebrew concept of 'knowledge' comes from reading scripture. The verb 'to know' is rooted in 'taking in covenant through the doorway of the eye'. I don't believe there are any bible studies in hell.

CONCLUSION: Debate with a JW is a waste of time. Job's friends were incorrect in their religious understanding because of the spirits that inhabited/inspired them. Those religious demons cause blindness to the truth. Too bad that Yah isn't going to show up in a whirlwind in our debate and dictate which has the correct position.

[Closingaccountreadgmailna]

Is this (part 1) and this (part 2) what you are looking for maybe?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by Yahu]

So what exactly is the point you are making about the condition of the dead from Job 26:4. It's not clear from your post how you are interpreting the verse and what your own point is.

Has Job 26:4 got something to do with proving the existence of ghosts in your opinion?


JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

Demons are evil spirits. They are not the "immortal souls" of humans that are now dead but rebellious angels that joined satan and are currently condemned to future destructions.

"Ghosts" do not exist. Demons (rebellious angels) often pretend to be dead people to mislead the gullible into believing dead loved ones or other individuals are still alive and seeking communication.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

That isn't what scripture supports. That is unless your denomination rewrites scripture to take out what doesn't support their doctrines. I checked the NWT of those passages ...

There is a special curse for those that alter scripture.

BTW the actual word 'watchtower' is straight out of the ancient paganism. If you look up the meanings of the Canaanite cities in Joshua, there several 'watchtower' references. Nearly every place name is specifically referencing a title or attribute of the Canaanite gods.

Mizpah -watchtower
Ramathmizpah - high place of the watchtower
Migdalgad - tower of Gad, ie Baalgad, lord of luck,
Migdalel - god of the tower

Of course, they are among cities with names like:
Bizjothjah - to despise Yah.

I highly recommend studying out the name meanings in Joshua 11-19. It will open your eyes to the significance placed on their deities and their attributes and symbols.

For example:
Joshua 15:56 56 And Jezreel, and Jokdeam, and Zanoah,

Jezreel - god who sows his seed
Jokdeam - burns people
Zanoah - reject, cast off

I'd say you have some strongholds to pull down.

I guess you could find references in paganism to ANY word you wanted to think of. "Watchtower" is taken directly out of the Bible, e.g., from Isaiah 21:8 (NASB): "Then the lookout called, 'O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower, and I am stationed every night at my guard post.'"

My spiritual brothers adopted the "watchtower" because they were keeping an eye on developing events and informing people of what could be seen approaching.

Could it be said that you are a bit over-zealous to tear down the Watchtower Society? Or am I way off-base?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by Yahu]

It most certainly is what scripture teaches. Ghosts (ie dead people communicating with the living) cannot exists because the bible says that the dead "know nothing" and that when one dies one "thoughts perish" indeed the bible is very explicit, saying "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (see Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5; Psalms 146:4)

Furthermore the words "immoral soul" never appear once together in scripture and the "soul" in scripture is also used in scripture to describe any living breathing thing that has blood in it and far frm saying that souls are immortal, the bible says that the "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (KJV Ez 18:20).

CONCLUSION: Since the bible says all thought and action ceases at death, that souls die when the "breath of life" returns to God, Ghosts can't exists since nothing is left of a dead person to wander the earth trying to communicate.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

Can't you see how corrupted the NWT is? The way it is written, it implies that 'the dead are less then fish' verses that 'spirits inhabit the 'waters', ie people'. It makes absolutely no sense for Job to say the dead are less then fish after talking about the source of Bildad's inspiration.

As for the phrase "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave", I don't dispute that. How can a ghost reap or sow or do any physical labor? It is kind of hard for ghosts to use physical devises as well. No farming tools in hell to use. It is true there is no wisdom in Sheol/Hell. That is referenced other places in scripture. The Hebrew concept of 'knowledge' comes from reading scripture. The verb 'to know' is rooted in 'taking in covenant through the doorway of the eye'. I don't believe there are any bible studies in hell.

CONCLUSION: Debate with a JW is a waste of time. Job's friends were incorrect in their religious understanding because of the spirits that inhabited/inspired them. Those religious demons cause blindness to the truth. Too bad that Yah isn't going to show up in a whirlwind in our debate and dictate which has the correct position.

Dead people ARE "less than fish," if the fish are alive. You continue to insist that death does't mean that someone is DEAD; he is still alive! You talk about JWs adding to scripture and twisting meanings!

Your view of Ecclesiastes 9:10 is puzzling. It says that "there is no knowledge or wisdom" in the grave. That means that those in the grave do not know anything. How is that being twisted by JWs? It goes right along with verse 5: "the dead do not know anything." (NASB)

Debate with a JW is indeed a waste of time, if a person is not concerned with learning the truth and is not humble and honest. But you are those things, right?

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 3 by Yahu]

It most certainly is what scripture teaches. Ghosts (ie dead people communicating with the living) cannot exists because the bible says that the dead "know nothing" and that when one dies one "thoughts perish" indeed the bible is very explicit, saying "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (see Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5; Psalms 146:4)
JEHOVAHS WITNESS

So you totally disregard Saul going to the witch of Endor and summoning up the ghost of a dead prophet? Do JWs just throw out those passages?

1 Sa 28:7 then said Saul to his servants, seek me a woman that has a spirit of Python, that I may go to her and inquire of her. and his servants said to him, behold, there is a woman who has a spirit of Python at En-dor.
8 and Saul disguised himself, and put on other garments, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, I pray thee, divine to me by the spirit of Python, and bring me him up whom I shall name to thee.
9 and the woman said to him, behold, thou knowest what Saul has done, how he has cut off the necromancers and the soothsayers out of the land; and why layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 and Saul swore unto her by Jehovah, saying, as Jehovah liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 then said the woman, whom shall I bring up to thee? and he said, bring me up Samuel.
12 and when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, why hast thou deceived me? even thou art Saul.
13 and the king said to her, be not afraid; but what didst thou see? and the woman said to Saul, I saw a god ascending out of the earth.
14 and he said to her, what is his form? and she said, an old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. and Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 and Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? and Saul said, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and god is departed from me, and answers me no more, neither by prophets nor by dreams; therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known to me what I shall do.
16 and Samuel said, why then dost thou inquire of me, seeing Jehovah is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 and Jehovah has done for himself as he spoke by me; and Jehovah has rent the kingdom out of thy hand, and given it to thy neighbour, to David.
18 because thou didst not hearken to the voice of Jehovah, and didst not execute his fierce anger upon Amalek, therefore has Jehovah done this thing to thee this day.
19 and Jehovah will also give Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines; and to-morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me; the army of Israel also will Jehovah give into the hand of the Philistines.

Obviously your interpretation is wrong. The spirit of Samuel does know things and tells Saul what will happen.