Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[Divine Insight]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

I'm no longer a Christian, but I was born and raised as a Christian into my late teens at which point I began to recognize self-contradictions with the religion. I also continued to study and re-visit the religion clear into my late 20's early 30's before I finally realized that the religion is neither salvageable nor deserving of being salvaged. In any case I'll answer your questions from my early Christian perspective.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

The particular church I grew up in did not believe that disbelief is grounds for damnation. They did however, believe that to recognize Christ as Lord and to accept him as your personal savior would guarantee a person eternal life via salvation through grace. But they did not believe that disbelief was automatic damnation. They simply didn't interpret John 3:18 to mean that. So I was personally never taught as a Christian that non-believers were automatically damned.

However, I do recognize that many Christian denominations do accept John 3:18 to mean what it says, as well as other scriptures in the Bible where it makes similar statements, such as in the Psalms and Romans.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

When I was a Christian I accepted that "God knows best". The idea was that if God had created an eternal hell there must be a good reason behind it because God would never do anything stupid, or out of a need to be sadistically mean or cruel.

I confess that in hindsight that's a pretty absurd view. Since that time I have concluded that such an absurd idea could never make sense. Nothing positive could ever come of it. The idea of "everlasting punishment'" as Jesus preached, can only be a superstition based on fear. Many Christians today even renounce the concept of an eternal hell and argue that Jesus was simply referring to death (i.e. annihilation) as being 'everlasting punishment. The need to "tone it down" seems to be gaining popularity among many modern day Christians.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever.

Today I totally agree with this. I can't see an eternity of suffering being justified for even the most despicable criminal. In fact, I'm also thinking that when we get down to extremely horrible criminals we're probably talking about some seriously mentally ill people anyway. And then there's the question of why they were so mentally ill in the first place?

During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

I think the fear tactic does indeed work very effectively. Especially on a subconscious level. I truly believe that many devout Christian who believe they have a great relationship with Jesus and their salvation is guaranteed trough Jesus are still being kept in this delusion via the subconscious thoughts that if they ever did renounce Jesus, even as mere disbelief, that would place them in jeopardy of being cast into hell.

In other words, Pascal's wager plays a major role in the minds of most Christians even if they never give it a thought. They have currently accepted Jesus and they are "Heaven Bound". Why risk losing that by now doubting that Jesus exists and potentially being case into eternal hell instead?

So I personally believe that the fear factor plays a major role in the minds of many Christians even though they may passionately deny this. They simply aren't aware that it truly is this subconscious fear factor that prevents them from ever considering that Jesus might not be real or the religion my be wrong. To doubt is to flirt with hell. Why take that path when you believe you are already on the highway to heaven? Especially when you have also convinced yourself that there is nothing wrong with continuing to believe as you do. These people have also been taught that you can never go wrong being on the side of Jesus and God. What could possibly be wrong with that? You and I can no doubt point out a lot of things wrong with that, but that's when they simply argue that they disagree.

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

I agree. And I am certainly one who would do away with hell. Therefore, as you point out, I am necessarily more merciful than this God, and that's a contradiction. Thus providing clear evidence that this religious mythology cannot be true.

Moreover, since I have concluded that this religion is indeed false and I proclaim that Jesus cannot be the "Son of God", and I reject Yahweh's own choice to cast people into hell then according to this religion I must be damned to hell myself.

This would require that this God cast me into hell for being more compassionate and merciful than him. How utterly absurd is that?

[ttruscott]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

It is not only just but an absolute necessity IF:

IF we are created as eternal beings, that is, unable to be annihilated and

IF we were able to become eternally sinful with no ability or hope of ever becoming repentant nor righteous and

IF a little leaven (evil) leavens (corrupts) the whole lump (person, country, reality) slowly but inevitably,

THEN those eternally aware people who have chosen to become eternally evil by their own free will decision to go against GOD's commands and other warnings must be banished from our created reality so their evil does not corrupt our heavenly telepathic communion of every individual, including GOD, who is the heavenly state of marriage.

Banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity for GOD to fulfil HIS purpose in our creation IF these conditions ever come to pass, which of course I think has happened.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

I cannot better YHWH. IF creating us eternal is more beneficial to us over being made mortal than immortal, then that would be the way HE would do it. All I need to know is that the damned are banished for however long that is and whatever form it takes. The details of hows, whys and wherefores do not concern me so much since they are all guesses anyway. Short or long doesn't matter to me - hell is justified if the other conditions are true.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Thanks for the comments. Right on!

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

Thanks for your views.

[Divine Insight]

IF we are created as eternal beings, that is, unable to be annihilated

That would be a God with whom all things are NOT possible.

This would violate the ideology of the Christian omnipotent God.

In other words, this is just an apology that apologizes for a supposedly omnipotent God via making the excuse that he's not truly omnipotent.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by amortalman]

The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.

The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life. We were created to live forever. Many other religions believe their God has the right to destroy even his children. But what security is there in that?

We all practise hell all the time. Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

So what parts of what I said can you agree with? Take my first sentence. Would we call a parent loving to put their child with a pedophile or a Shepard to put a lamb with the wolf. Can you see how normal it is and loving it is in the everyday to try to separate good from bad?

[JehovahsWitness]

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

No, its no different from arguing against torture in prison.

Not even that, since even if one argues someone should be tortured in prison, that would only last for as long as their life, sooner or later they would die and the torture would stop.

If I am not mistaken it's no different from arguing against keeping someone eternally alive for the sole purpose of watching them suffer. No hope that the suffering will lead to reform or repentance, no chance that the suffering will end, just keeping them alive to be tortured. Keeping Something or someone alive for the sole purpose of making them feel pain is the behavior of a psychopath.

Eternal torture is not necessary to keep someone away from the innocent or ensure that the wicked be punished, the bible confirms God can destroy both body and soul. And since nobody has been wicked eternally, (everyone except the Almighty had a beginning) eternal torture is by definition, excessive.



Further reading: The Lie That Made God Cruel
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ruel-hell/


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Would God not prefer the wicked long drawn out pain rather than quick annihilation? [this post]
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viewtopic.php?p=909903#p909903

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[Divine Insight]

So what parts of what I said can you agree with? Take my first sentence. Would we call a parent loving to put their child with a pedophile or a Shepard to put a lamb with the wolf. Can you see how normal it is and loving it is in the everyday to try to separate good from bad?

But your apology here fails miserably. This God has already put us into a world polluted with pedophiles, wolves, and all manner of evil people.

So for your argument to hold then we (i.e. decent people who aren't criminals and sickos) shouldn't even be in this world at all.

[2timothy316]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

Hi, amoralman, I'm going to make my answers short just so that there will be room for more questions. I am sure I will be pounced on for this view as I normally am.

Answer to #1: My 'brand of religion' doesn't teach that unbelievers suffer for eternity. Ecc 9:5 says, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all..." These means there is no living after death. Death is not another form of living. So saying death is another life is like saying being dry is another form of being wet. Life and death are opposites.

However, that doesn't mean there is no 'hell' or Lake of Fire. Hell, if person studies the Bible finds out that hell is just the grave. That's it. Hell/the grave where we put our dead. In urns, crypts, the sea or even outer space, where ever.

Lake of Fire represents destruction. It's not literal. It's figurative. With that being said, lets go to question 2.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

I'm all for the removal of hell. We grow old, we die and we go to the grave. AKA hell. The Bible says in Revelation 21:4 "death will be no more�. So really, I don't need permission, death will be done away with by God Himself.

However, what about the Lake of Fire? There will certainly be those that will die but never to return. Would I want God to abolish the LoF? No. Those completely destroyed I wouldn't want to return. Let's face it, there are some bad folks in the world. They don't love anyone but themselves, they harm themselves and others. Some even kill or destroy the planet not caring about their fellow man. Following instructions to help themselves and their fellow man are spit upon. If they changed then Hallelujah and don't put them in the LoF. However, many don't want to change. They are delighted in their ways. No. I wouldn't get rid of the LoF. I wouldn't want these kinds of people that delight in hate and rebellion back.